WTF...and other stuff

[Guest]

I am grateful for your post, Colly. It explains well why Box angered me. His post and the more recent one displays (for me anyway) the worst that came out of 'the race card' buzz.

Missed you lately, Perdita

 

[destinie21]

quote:
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Originally posted by Boxlicker101
When African-American or Hispanic people are arrested, they frequently play the race card by complaining they are being picked on because of race. Because sometimes, although hardly ever, they are correct, it is an effective ploy.
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That first sentence IS an example of playing the race card. Sometimes if a person can make enough fuss and possibly get influential persons to make a fuss, they can get a charge dropped or win acquittal from a sympathetic jury. Johnnie Cochran played the race care very effectively in the O. J. Simpson trial.

I'm not sure what you mean about the second sentence. Remember, I am referring to here and now, not 50 years ago or in the deep south. I will admit there are still some vestiges of racism in both SF and San Jose, and probably everywhere, but don't forget the race of the most recent mayor of SF or the curent one in San Jose. I still say that one somebody says something like "I was just hassled because I am (black, brown, red, yellow, white, green) his or her complaint has no merit and is just to accuse the accusers.

Damn I was willing to give you rhe benefit of the doubt in the first post, not again. I'm not saying some people don't fal back on raccial injustice as an excuse but what of people like assata shakur or mumia abdu-Jamal or Amadou dillou? guess just by virtue of being black they were playing the race card

 

[Icingsugar]

Des, Box, you're both taking to extreme cases of argumenting here, and are actually, in this very thread playing some cards of your own.

Box:

I still say that one somebody says something like "I was just hassled because I am (black, brown, red, yellow, white, green) his or her complaint has no merit and is just to accuse the accusers.

You're saying that minorities, when accused or cornered, often call the accuser on his race bias. This is true. Too bad you have to go on and say that that complaint has no merit. Which is very often untrue. A (generalised) black man does not have a negative attitude towards the police becuse he thinks that's fun. But because, more often than not, he have a reason to. I think it's wrong to talk about the race card in a serious situation like that.

Des:

Damn I was willing to give you rhe benefit of the doubt in the first post, not again. I'm not saying some people don't fal back on raccial injustice as an excuse but what of people like assata shakur or mumia abdu-Jamal or Amadou dillou? guess just by virtue of being black they were playing the race card

Of course bloody not. I'm not well initiated about the cases, but from what I do know they are/were victims of ignorance, hate and blatant racism. And whatever they did and said to become victims, they did not deserve it.

Sorry desitinie, (and note well that I'm not attacking your opinions in general, I do agree with you and P about the presence or racism everywhere around us) but this is what playing the race card means in a social debate situation like this. By calling racism on reflex on a debater instead of disputing the argument and it's "facts", and to pull argumentative shock value into it (your name dropping of racism victims) in order to shame the opponent into backing down, the open debate is stifled.

Yes, I'd rather debate outspoken bigotry until hell freeze over than claim that their voice is invalid because they are racists.

You have reality on your side (for instance, police do again and again practice racial screening). Use it.

/Ice

ps. Good point, Colly. Race cards works both ways. To say "Are you calling me a racist?" is almost as good a trump as "You are a racist."

 

[destinie21]

Des, Box, you're both taking to extreme cases of argumenting here, and are actually, in this very thread playing some cards of your own.

Box:

You're saying that minorities, when accused or cornered, often call the accuser on his race bias. This is true. Too bad you have to go on and say that that complaint has no merit. Which is very often untrue. A (generalised) black man does not have a negative attitude towards the police becuse he thinks that's fun. But because, more often than not, he have a reason to. I think it's wrong to talk about the race card in a serious situation like that.

Des:
Of course bloody not. I'm not well initiated about the cases, but from what I do know they are/were victims of ignorance, hate and blatant racism. And whatever they did and said to become victims, they did not deserve it.

Sorry desitinie, (and note well that I'm not attacking your opinions in general, I do agree with you and P about the presence or racism everywhere around us) but this is what playing the race card means in a social debate situation like this. By calling racism on reflex on a debater instead of disputing the argument and it's "facts", and to pull argumentative shock value into it (your name dropping of racism victims) in order to shame the opponent into backing down, the open debate is stifled.

Yes, I'd rather debate outspoken bigotry until hell freeze over than claim that their voice is invalid because they are racists.

You have reality on your side (for instance, police do again and again practice racial screening). Use it.

/Ice

ps. Good point, Colly. Race cards works both ways. To say "Are you calling me a racist?" is almost as good a trump as "You are a racist."

What I meant by my post was that as a black person or any persons belonging to any of the countless minorities, being arressted is an issue that will always bring race to forefront. I can tell you for a cold hard fact living in a upper class neighborhood growing up I was questioned as to what a girl like me was doing there at the time of night. I'm not saying black people or minorities and such don't commit crimes I'm saying many times race is used as probable cause. I wasn't dropping names either I was stating real cases where race was exactly the issue I used ones that would be familiar. And if theres any shame I certainly didn't bring it on but please note that general and sweeping coment amount to stereotyping to me so for box to use those statements without backing it up does upset me.

 

[dirtylover]

I'm black and I can spit perfectly fine without the N word but let me explain it as best I can. Nigga is a family thing

So is it offensive for me to use it, but not a black person?

And to Perdita, not sure what a spic actually is, but is it more offensive for other ethnic groups to use it?

Or maybe it's to do with how well you know the person.

Or maybe not. I'm welsh, and it seems perfectly acceptable to take the piss because of that. Nigga, to me, seems like the most taboo word, maybe because I hardly know any black people. To me, it still seems like a word that manages to segregate whites and blacks.

Maybe if it was used openly, race would stop being so much of an issue. Words lose power when they're over-used (I think), like fuck...used to seem bad when I was a kid, but now it means nothing. Cunt on the other hand...

Anyways, I abberate.

I work in a school with a large ethnic mix. Don't think the race card is used much, and if it was, it wouldn't work.

 

[lucky-E-leven]

This has always been a fascinating topic to me. I am from the south (USA) and grew up hearing the word used frequently, in many various contexts, by all different races. There are some interesting points raised in the 'linked' article, a book review by a man viewing it from all sides. Some argue that banning it only validates its dirtiness, while others believe that to ignore its existance is to ignore the negative connotation ever existed or was as powerful as it was. Anyway, I'll let you decide for yourself.

The final two paragraphs are a bit of summation, but the article is more detailed:

But I'm sure Kennedy would forgive me for calling these niggling flaws. Kennedy's argument that "nigger" has far too complex a history, far too many uses, to ever have just one meaning makes his book an implicit plea not to limit the richness of African-American vernacular. There have been other controversies over that heritage in recent years, most notably in the arguments over Ebonics. The most sensible response came from Stanley Crouch, who argued that of course Ebonics exist and no, they shouldn't be taught.

Crouch said that black vernacular derives its richness in relation to traditional English and that its invention and humor could only be appreciated by someone who knows what it's riffing on to begin with. (That's an appropriate argument coming from someone who's written so well about jazz. It's like saying you have to know "Someday My Prince Will Come" or "My Favorite Things" to appreciate the changes Miles Davis and John Coltrane wrought on them.) And "nigger" is part of that heritage; the comedy of Richard Pryor, to cite one example, would be unthinkable without it. The power of "Nigger" is that Kennedy writes fully of the word, neither condemning its every use nor fantasizing that it can ever become solely a means of empowerment. The word "nigger," in all its uses, will always be with us. The book "Nigger," for the pleasures of its clarity of thought and prose, deserves to be, too.

The N Word

~lucky

 

[Guest]

dl, a Spic means a Spaniard. In the states it is used as a slur (not as bad as nigger though) against anyone who speaks Spanish as a first language. It is insulting because I am Mexican, not Spanish or European. “Wetback” is a common slur for Mexicans and refers to crossing the Rio Grande to enter the states illegally. I was born here (Detroit, Michigan) wet all over like most babies.

Yes, it has to do with how well you know someone. As I said, someone on the AH calls me Spic and it makes me larf only.

As you seem to merely be ignorant of things I’ll simply explain that “nigger” is what black slaves were called, the word originating from “negro”, the Spanish for black. When my brothers and I got especially dark in summers our father lovingly called us negrito/a. We were taught never to use the word nigger.

I don’t see the word ever being used openly among non-blacks, it has too awful a history.

You mention cunt, a favourite word. Some men in my life have used it well and affectionately; I use it with women friends.

Perdita

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I use the word nigger infrequently in my stories. I never use it when speaking, neither among an all white group where it is accepted and used, nor among my black freinds who use it among themselves and have said they wouldn't take offense to me using it with them, simply because I am part of their network of friends.

The word has no good connotation to me, I cringe when my freinds use it among themselves. The explanation I have heard most often is that they have appropriated the word, and by using it among themselves as an ordinary term, they have shorn it of its ability to hurt. It is still to me a word that is used with the implicit intention of being hurtful.

-Colly

 

[Icingsugar]

What I meant by my post was that as a black person or any persons belonging to any of the countless minorities, being arressted is an issue that will always bring race to forefront. I can tell you for a cold hard fact living in a upper class neighborhood growing up I was questioned as to what a girl like me was doing there at the time of night. I'm not saying black people or minorities and such don't commit crimes I'm saying many times race is used as probable cause.

And I agree with you on every digit. It's out there, in our faces, every day.

When I lived in the US, I caused a minor shitstorm in my oh so nice, white neighborhood by "bringing home all those dubious women all the time, what are they, prostitutes?", as they put it. The dubious women was in fact one and the same, my then girlfriend, a quiet, kind girl who was better educated and more conservatively dressed than the local girls. So "dubious" must have been another word for "black" in their dictionary.

I wasn't dropping names either I was stating real cases where race was exactly the issue

Yes, race and racism had everything to do with it. Blatant and ugly open sores of racism. But it had very little to do with playing the Race Card, as in crying "racism" (or "wolf") when it is really not justified. That's all I really said.

It seems we somewhere along the line misread each other. I sure must have. So let's just state the important thing: we agree on the big issues. Let's leave the little ones, like how we vent, for another day.

/Ice

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Other stuff-question.

My dictionary doesn't include the word ARGYLE. Can anyone explain it to me?

 

[Guest]

Other stuff-question.

You are so cool, Svenska.

Argyle is a knitting pattern, used often in men's socks, but in sweaters too. You know those multi-colored diamond patterns?

argyle

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Oh, I see. Thanks, P-yamou.

 

[Guest]

leaving off argyle now...

I post this here to help illustrate the vagaries and levels of how racism works. If you don't get it, I can't explain. - Perdita

Didn't know Brother Elk? Now you do - Laurel Wellman, 2.25.2004, SF Chronicle

Remember when Janet Jackson's pierced nipple shocked a nation of Super Bowl viewers? Those were such innocent times. As we writhed in collective shame, it seemed that the soul-searching, the discussion of moral and fleshly laxity, the tremulous apologies, the assignment of blame would never end.

Then, in the midst of our national agony, we managed, somehow, to come together for the Grammy Awards. And that would have been when we saw OutKast performing its hit single "Hey, Ya" -- in a production number that featured a tepee, feathers, war paint and dancers in green fringed miniskirts and halter tops. And some of us asked ourselves: Wasn't it just vaguely possible somebody, somewhere might see a problem with the performance?

"I thought, this is a joke, right? Somebody's going to come out and say this is all a joke," said Andrew Brother Elk.

Brother Elk is chairman of the Native American Cultural Center -- a San Francisco group few had heard of before until it made news by filing an FCC complaint against CBS and calling for a boycott of the network, Arista Records and the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences. He had a free afternoon and agreed to have lunch at the Tin Pan Bistro on Upper Market.

Apparently, the restaurant was once a dot-com-boom lunch hotspot, so packed with people doing whatever it was they did in those days -- if one had to guess, something involving "strategic partnerships" -- that it was impossible to get a reservation.

But on this chilly gray afternoon, there were only four occupied tables in the whole place, and we knocked back double americanos in one of the most peaceful times Brother Elk -- a hip-looking guy in black jeans, chunky black shoes, a motocross-style leather jacket and a punkish haircut -- had enjoyed in a couple of hectic weeks. "There's so many people who -- I think in good faith -- write to us and say, 'Why aren't you honored that a best-selling, Grammy-winning band would honor your culture?' " he said. Until the controversy, the center put most of its energy into organizing a dance troupe, so when he turned on his television in time to see OutKast, Brother Elk hadn't been planning a career as a guest on right-wing call-in radio shows. Now, almost by default, he's on the national airwaves, explaining to confused listeners why many American Indians were offended by the group's performance. "I have to start from the beginning and say, 'Look, this is a racial stereotype.' "

Just in case you're thinking of patronizing the Tin Pan now that it's possible to get a lunch table, you may be interested in the restaurant's menu, which is pan-Asian with a California influence.

"Some people swear by their soup," said Brother Elk, who ordered the coconut curry version, along with the crunchy sesame chicken. I chose the Szechuan long beans and Singapore shrimp.

Actually, Brother Elk said he hadn't time to eat many regular meals in the previous few days; response to the cultural center's call for a boycott --

aimed at hurting CBS' viewership during this ratings sweep month -- quickly became overwhelming. Early on, the small group realized it could wage its campaign via the Internet, but the speed with which the protest spread was still unexpected.

"Naively, I just thought we'd do this for a couple of days, then people will apologize, and everything will get back to normal," he said. Instead, the organization has received more than 50,000 e-mails and seen 10,000 people sign its online petition. Meanwhile, CBS has continued to offer what Brother Elk considers the classic non-apology apology: " 'If anyone was offended, we're sorry,' " he quotes the network as saying. "For people who've been in bad relationships, I'm sure they resonate with that one."

Another thing that's strangely resonant is the issue itself. After all, haven't we already been through this with any number of sports franchises -- for instance, when Atlanta Braves fans were asked to stop doing the tomahawk chop because it was offensive to Native Americans. Brother Elk recalls that controversy, too. "We banned the Indian mascot at Stanford when I was an undergraduate there almost 30 years ago. A lot of people complained and said, 'Oh, so, what's next? The Washington Redskins?' And we were like, 'Uh, yeah.' "

Meanwhile, a somewhat pointed satire of the Grammy performance is rumored for the Academy Awards.

"We heard that someone's going to dress up in a really outrageous caricature of American Indians -- kind of like what OutKast did, only even more extreme -- and then say, 'Oh, I'm sorry -- I thought this was honoring Native Americans,' " said Brother Elk.

What disruptive person could be planning such a thing?

"Billy Crystal."

Well! Having scaled these unexpected heights of celebrity -- even through unconfirmed rumor -- let us take a moment to ground ourselves in food: My Szechuan beans, stir-fried with ginger, garlic and what the menu described as ebi paste -- otherwise, if less glamorously, known as shrimp paste -- made for a somewhat salty dish, though the beans themselves were sweet and crisp. In retrospect I am violently mortified to say I didn't share them, especially as Brother Elk handed over some of his entree for evaluation purposes: The chicken, while tender and moist, didn't live up to its name; its batter coating had failed to achieve crunchiness. But the Singapore shrimp were perfectly cooked, and nicely complemented by the tangy coconut lime sauce in which they were tossed.

Still, it does strike one that there's a very, very remote possibility that, because a video clip of a bare breast wasn't involved, the controversy over OutKast's Grammy performance hasn't achieved the exposure (I tried to think of another word, but it's been a long day) that the Jackson-Timberlake debacle did. But Brother Elk said he's happy to have brought the issue into the public consciousness, whether or not he and other Indians ever get a more comprehensive apology from CBS.

"People have asked, 'What's your measure of success?' " he said. "For me, it's already occurred -- the fact that we're having this dialogue in this country."

 

[Weird Harold]

George Carlin said it best...

"There are no bad words, just bad thoughts."

Banning words from common use doesn't do anything to banish the bad thoughts behind them. Nor does encouraging the "bad words" necessarily encourage the bad thoughts they're associated with.

Something much deeper than banning "bad words" is needed to solve the problem of the "bad thoughts" of racism.

However, people being people, I doubt that there is any one thing that can be done to stop people from hating others so they can feel superior to them.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I tended to believe that Native american groups were going to far, demanding that sports teams change their names. I still tend to feel that way, but I saw an ad once that did give me a lot of pause to think. There were about 15 penants, hats and shirts with sports teams I didn't recognize. When you looked again you saw things like.

The New York Jews Baseball team.
The Atlanta Spades Football team
The Long Island Micks Hocky team
The Texas Spics baseball team
The New Jersey Wops Hockey team

Etc. Etc.

The caption at the bottom said if any of these have offended you, how do you think we feel? and showed a Redskins uniform, A Braves uniform and an Indians uniform.

Kinda sobering.

-Colly

 

[Guest]

Colly, that was a pertinent post. It's difficult at times to get the distance to be able to see how deeply rooted racism can be. You grow up with stuff and don't think about it until it's put in your face.

Red Skins and Braves are to native Americans as other slurs are to me. Besides the words, just think on the fact that these people were simply appropriated as mascots, like animals (Miami dolphins, Detroit tigers and lions, etc.) There is nothing especially positive or respectful about it, even if one thinks an athlete would like to be regarded as "brave". The Aztecs would be an OK name for a Mexican team, but not for one that plays for Idaho (just a far fetched example).

Perdita

 

[Icingsugar]

Good food for thought there Perdita.

Never really focused on the issue, but the native american stereotype is quite a blatant one.

Elk's got a valit point. Isn't actually "redskin" as disparaging a term as "spic" or "gook" or "nigger"? And we sure as hell don't see names like the Tenessee Niggers or the San Jose Spics in the leauge tables.

/Ice

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I tended to believe that Native american groups were going to far, demanding that sports teams change their names. I still tend to feel that way, but I saw an ad once that did give me a lot of pause to think. There were about 15 penants, hats and shirts with sports teams I didn't recognize. When you looked again you saw things like.

The New York Jews Baseball team.
The Atlanta Spades Football team
The Long Island Micks Hocky team
The Texas Spics baseball team
The New Jersey Wops Hockey team

Etc. Etc.

The caption at the bottom said if any of these have offended you, how do you think we feel? and showed a Redskins uniform, A Braves uniform and an Indians uniform.

Kinda sobering.

-Colly

That's excellent. Very thought-provoking. Now, I can guess what a "spade" is, though I was a little confused at first, thinking about the tool you dig holes with, and thanks to P explaining how insulted she feels if someone calls her a "spic", I can also guess what that word comes from.

But what the eff is a "mick" and a "wop"???

 

[oggbashan]

'mick' is a derogatory term for an Irishman, particularly Irish/American.

'wop' is the same for Italian.

Og

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Oh. I C. Thanks, ogg.

Do I dare ask what nickname they have for Swedes? Apart from the ever-so-funny Inga and Ingrid of the Swedish Bikini Team. (Hubby, dearest, sweetest... that joke was only funny the first 23 times...)

 

[minsue]

Oh. I C. Thanks, ogg.

Do I dare ask what nickname they have for Swedes? Apart from the ever-so-funny Inga and Ingrid of the Swedish Bikini Team. (Hubby, dearest, sweetest... that joke was only funny the first 23 times...)

As far as I know, that's about it. Blondes are revered here 'Flicka.

 

[Guest]

Flicka, I think Swedish women are just sluts to us. It comes from around the 60s when Americans would go to see Swedish "art" films just for the nudity and fucking. Imagine seeing an Ingmar Bergman film for the sex .

Perdita

 

[gauchecritic]

Do I dare ask what nickname they have for Swedes?

Not sure about Swedes but will this M.Python sketch about the 'Belgians' do?

Well now, the result of last week's competition when we asked you to find a derogatory term for the Belgians.
Well, the response was enormous and we took quite a long time sorting out the winners.
There were some very clever entries. Mrs. Hatred of Leicester Said 'Let's not call them anything, let's just ignore them' [applause starts vigorously, but he holds his hands up for silence]...
and a Mr. St. John of Huntingdon said he couldn't think of anything more derogatory than Belgians. [cheers and appluse; a girl in showgirl costume comes on and holds up placards through next bit]
But in the end we settled on three choices:

number three... the Sprouts [placard 'The Sprouts'], sent in by Mrs. Vicious of Hastings... very nice;

number two... the Phlegms [placard]... from Mrs. Childmolester of Worthing;



but the winner was undoubtedly from Mrs. No-Supper-For-You from Norwood in Lancashire...


















Miserable Fat Belgian Bastards.


Gauche

 

[Guest]

Miserable Fat Belgian Bastards.

I know nothing about Belgians and their rep in England, but that was very funny, Gauche. Come to think of it, I've never met a Sprout. Given the multicultural makeup of San Francisco and that the only Belgian thing I've been exposed to is a waffle, I wonder if they are barred from the states.

Perdita

 

[Black Tulip]

Perdita, they probably can't swim long enough to get to the USA, or think it's behind the counter of a McDonald's.

We don't have a special term for Belgians, just the name is enough to evoke loud laughter among the Dutch. [Just as the Belgians start making money gestures when you mention Dutch people.]

The only nasty name I know of is Mof [Kraut?] for a German. But as there are ever less survivors of WWII, that name is dying out. I can't think of any other nicknames for ethnic groups.

This discussion is enlightening. I never tought anything of the whatever Braves. Simply because I never made the connection. I took that literally as being the brave ones.