WTF...and other stuff

[CharleyH]

I don't like Beauty contests at all, but I dislike this dividing into different groups even more. There's too much grouping in society, too much "we and them".

We shouldn't isolate ourselves with people who look just like us, but get out and interact with others, or we'll never develop beyond the age of 3, mentally.

Actually the phrase is "us and other," but thats assumming alot, yet has greater historical, theoretical and societal implications, and some of which are visited on this thread. 'US and other' is the term, which is the unfortunate gap between all of us, no matter who we are. And I'm a little surprised that Des or Perdita didn't bring it up, (of course I haven't read each and every thing) but well - fascinating thread, don't want to get too involved, so slowly backing out, but interestingly watching.

 

[RenzaJones]

In espousing my beliefs about "American Africans", I was merely pointing what (to me) is obvious. Race-based oppression, or even merely race-based exploitation, can only effectively be countered by race-based solidarity among the racially oppressed group.

The alternative to race-based solidarity as a counter to racism, is assimilation. No doubt assimilation can benefit the few, but it cannot change the condition of the majority of the oppressed as long as racist behaviors remain entrenched in the broader society.


The point we're at now is like adding food coloring to a recipie. How do you remove it once it's baked without having to start the whole recipe from the very beginnig?

 

[CharleyH]

Once more, with feeling. I am spurred on by the posts here, but please, I hope no white persons take offence, esp. those of you I am closest to.

I don't want segregation or isolationism, but I do want to just be me, and that is Mexican on many very personal levels. I don't want to blend in or join in or lose any of the indentity I was born with, grew up with, researched, lost and found, etc. I don't want to only be around other Mexicans either. But, please, don't keep trying to strip me for the sake of a non-existant, undesired (by me) utopian world.

I, for one, hope this is not directed at me. Other is an historical, societal and specific word, used always semitoically as words are. . . it is the way of Western culture to seperate, segregate. So if I happen to be half white and half black, my brother is black, and I am white but a Hungarian-British-Scottish-German-Jewish-Catholic-Trinidadian-French Mennonite, forgot to metion gay . . . well, where does that leave me? Or anyone in North America for that matter?

Yet, I am still a Canadian, and as you said yourself, you are an American. So define it.

Just sitting here thinking . . .and posting.

 

[RenzaJones]

CH are you asking for the definition of american?

 

[Guest]

I, for one, hope this is not directed at me. ...
Yet, I am still a Canadian, and as you said yourself, you are an American. So define it.

No, Charley, it was not directed at you, and I won't say who prompted my post, doesn't matter.

You're an American too. So are my relatives in Mexico, and friends in Chile. But as I've often said, American generally means the U.S. to people, and its the U.S. govt. and culture that puts that identity forth. I've also often said that I don't regard myself as American but for birthplace. I'm a Mexican woman most of all the labels one might give me.

Perdita

 

[CharleyH]

In espousing my beliefs about "American Africans", I was merely pointing what (to me) is obvious. Race-based oppression, or even merely race-based exploitation, can only effectively be countered by race-based solidarity among the racially oppressed group.

The alternative to race-based solidarity as a counter to racism, is assimilation. No doubt assimilation can benefit the few, but it cannot change the condition of the majority of the oppressed as long as racist behaviors remain entrenched in the broader society.


The point we're at now is like adding food coloring to a recipie. How do you remove it once it's baked without having to start the whole recipe from the very beginnig?

You have a good point, and how do we remove concepts so entrenched, so ingrained, when everything around us actually feeds us . . . none of us is immune, and all of us are unaccepting to one degree or another. We lobby, or fight, and thank the fucking god we can!!!!

 

[CharleyH]

CH are you asking for the definition of american?

Yes Renza, if everyone is something else, what the fuck is American. LOL, certainly not Mom and Apple pie?

 

[RenzaJones]

lol to me american is nothing more than a citizen of the usa, wherever or whatever the orgin so long as they are a citizen at some point.

 

[CharleyH]

No, Charley, it was not directed at you, and I won't say who prompted my post, doesn't matter.

You're an American too. So are my relatives in Mexico, and friends in Chile. But as I've often said, American generally means the U.S. to people, and its the U.S. govt. and culture that puts that identity forth. I've also often said that I don't regard myself as American but for birthplace. I'm a Mexican woman most of all the labels one might give me.

Perdita

Yes, isn't everyone in the world an American? Monroe Doc stipulates something like that. lol - I know what your saying. I'm just sarcastic, tis all. I know the U.S. inundated by it. Aren't you guys about to INVADE us?

 

[CharleyH]

lol to me american is nothing more than a citizen of the usa, wherever or whatever the orgin so long as they are a citizen at some point.

What disciminating against all those illegals needing to get out of . . . .? Shame, shame little lady.

 

[RenzaJones]

What disciminating against all those illegals needing to get out of . . . .? Shame, shame little lady.

lol trying to twist my words, I didn't say the "illegals" weren't allowed and quite interegal to america I simply wouldn't define them as american not anymore than my moving to paris would make me french.

 

[CharleyH]

lol trying to twist my words, I didn't say the "illegals" weren't allowed and quite interegal to america I simply wouldn't define them as american not anymore than my moving to paris would make me french.

Hm.

First off thought you were African American, second, nope not twisting your beautiful words. just quoting you, third you just made my point again, thank you, and fourth .... did I tell you how beautiful you're AV was today?

 

[RenzaJones]

Hm.

First off thought you were African American, second, nope not twisting your beautiful words. just quoting you, third you just made my point again, thank you, and fourth .... did I tell you how beautiful you're AV was today?

first I am "african american" secnd you didn't quote me or rather you did but you followed it up with an unfounded assumption, I don't understand the third and fourth no you didn't tell me so thanks

 

[CharleyH]

well Renza, you said, and to paraphrase, that you thought illegals weren't American. Well what makes anyone American, since we are all from somewhere else my love . Are you SPECIAL in some way? Because you define yourself as something other, and well being a hungarian, german, english trinidadian,and whtever else I am . . .

Yes forgot to say say how gorgeuos the AV was . . . oops, not as charming as I'd rather be.

 

[CharleyH]

oh, forgot to mention my little love, that you are defining yourself in the greater context - I have narrowed mine . . .African American? Well, so are a bunch of white people I know . . . so narrow your heritage . . .everyone else does. Perdita does, I do - LOL - as much as a shit mix as it is . . . .and DAMN proud of it. I'm pretty sure that in the context of Africa, on an evolutionary scale, I'm from there too.

 

[destinie21]

lol Renza is on her way home to me as we speak but I can breif you on her background she's black in the american sense and guyanse. Somebody somewhere in her family is Cherokee and probably more than a little european whatever thrown in the mix. I can't speak for her thoughtsand such so I'll leave that to her.

 

[CharleyH]

Just being a pain in your ass Des - lol

 

[RenzaJones]

well Renza, you said, and to paraphrase, that you thought illegals weren't American. Well what makes anyone American, since we are all from somewhere else my love . Are you SPECIAL in some way? Because you define yourself as something other, and well being a hungarian, german, english trinidadian,and whtever else I am . . .

Yes forgot to say say how gorgeuos the AV was . . . oops, not as charming as I'd rather be.

Excuse me if I lol
I take american to mean a bonafide you've got the right to vote if only you would register citizen although I know what you're saying and I agree that
There ain’t too many of us in this country whose bloodline is pure.
, according to a geological, geographical, genealogy study published in Time Magazine,
The Black African people were the first on the scene,
So for what it’s worth, the Black African people were the first on earth And through migration, our characteristics started to change, and rearrange,
To adapt to whatever climate we migrated to.
And that’s how I became me, and you became you.

So, if we gonna go back, let’s go all the way back,
And if Adam was Black then born of his rib Eve was Black,
Then that kind of makes it a natural fact
that everybody in America is an African American.

Everybody in Europe is an African European; everybody in the Orient is an African Asian
And so on and so on,
That is, if the origin of man is what we’re gonna go on.
And if one drop of Black blood makes you Black like they say,
Then everybody’s Black anyway.


in anycase it's not what you call me that makes me me it's what I respond to.



(did I add enough smilies to make it known that I'm not offended
if not .

 

[oggbashan]

American?

From this side of the pond everyone currently in North, Central and South America is 'American' unless they are just visiting.

Our wartime Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, had an American (US) mother. Then he was made an honorary US Citizen. So we have more than the US Armed Forces to thank for winning WWII. They even gave us half our leader although I think he was born in one piece from an American mother so she gave us all of him.

Og

 

[Guest]

Gee, Renza, I guess that makes Gauche African-Yorkshire. Now I must go underground.

Perdita

 

[RenzaJones]

if nothing else I'm a facetious american .

 

[SlickTony]

A (generalised) black man does not have a negative attitude towards the police becuse he thinks that's fun. But because, more often than not, he have a reason to. I think it's wrong to talk about the race card in a serious situation like that.

Being a white person who can't even get a decent tan, I haven't had any stuff like that happen to me, but of course I have black friends and acqaintances, including a former boss who wanted to recarpet her house and walked into a carpet store with money burning in her pocket. The white staff looked around and through and behind her and hastened to wait on the white people who'd come in after her, when for all they knew she had more money and better credit than the other people who'd come in.

As for American people's impression of Swedes, it depends on whether you're talking about Swedes in Sweden or Swedish-Americans. My impression is that the the former hasn't changed much. The Swedes and other Scandinavians who settled in the Plains states of America suffered a certain amount of discrimination when they first arrived. Many of them arrived with little, and were obliged to start out as servants to the "Anglos" who had settled first. Their women were judged to be "easier" than Anglo girls. which meant that they were perceived to be in the subclass of women that it was permissible to have fun with but not marry. Of course they persevered and the next generation was able to buy up the land of the people whose parents had discriminated against them.

Garrison Keillor has made a name and a bunch of money for himeself for his protrayal of modern Scandinavian Americans as stodgy, uptight, close-mouthed Lutherans. From the 19th century perception of the fun-loving and easy Swedish girl to the Swedish Bikini Team is not that much of a stretch. It's possible that the Swedish guy was always seen as uptight and inhibited. I don't have that much to go on as I don't know that many Swedish-decended guys except for the ones in my family.

I am regretfully forced to conclude that there is still a strong streak of racism in American society, and I despair to think that, like prostitution, it is no more possible to remove it than it is to remove the egg from a cake after you've mixed it up. As a result you have such disparate, but related phenomena as our government's consistently fucked up policy toward Haiti, which dates back to offering Toussaint L'Overature encouragement with one hand and then snatching it back with the other, at the behest of the slaveholding south, and the OJ Simpson verdict. It is my opinion, based on the evidence that was brought to trial, that he was as guilty as hell. The fact that he was rich, famous and black is a red herring. If Nicole had been a middle class or working class girl working in the next cubicle or the next cash register from you and her husband had been white you would have recognized the red flags of spousal abuse going on before the murder went down and when she turned up dead, you would have come to the obvious conclusion.

However, I am willing to bet that each and every black person on that jury had been stopped for driving while black, or shadowed outrageously in a jewelry shop at least once, or more likely, several times. After that had been ground into one's psyche for most of a lifetime, it's small wonder that when it came time to determne the fate of a black man accused of a crime, it was hard for them to be objective. I'm not saying that was right, I am just saying I think I can understand how it could happen.

 

[Liar]

Once more, with feeling. I am spurred on by the posts here, but please, I hope no white persons take offence, esp. those of you I am closest to.

I don't want segregation or isolationism, but I do want to just be me, and that is Mexican on many very personal levels. I don't want to blend in or join in or lose any of the indentity I was born with, grew up with, researched, lost and found, etc. I don't want to only be around other Mexicans either. But, please, don't keep trying to strip me for the sake of a non-existant, undesired (by me) utopian world.

No offense taken (if I was in some way on your mind when you write this). And none given, I hope.

I love a good discussion. There is nothing more interresting than to untangle and learn someone else's point of view. But time and again I run into the same wall when trying to understand matters like these. The 'you wouldn't understand because you're not me' wall, or even the 'I have no obligation to justify my views because you're white' wall. I'm not saying that that has been a problem in this thread, only that a variation of it, much more sober and less isolationistic, did rear it's head.

So please understand that if I throw screwballs in discussions like this, it is not because I want to miscredit anyones opinion, but because I want to force them to explain them better. Niether I mean to upset anyone. Only to learn.

It's so easy for whites to say, let's all be one, or let's all just be human beings. How's this for an analogy? What if all the UK people were told to "just be English" and everyone speak 'received English' or whatever it's called, and everyone have identical vocabularies and maxims, habits, manners, etc.

An invalid one, I'm afraid. This transferred to blacks and whites would be the white saying "let's all just be white", not "let's all just be human beings".

But I think I get your point. The ones in majority often say "let us all get along" when they really mean "let's adapt You into My frame of reference". Sad but true.

I personally have no ethnical or ancestral identity whatsoever that defines me as a person. I have roots in so many places that in the tug-o-war between them, they all came off. The inheritance and culture closest to my family's recent generations is as alien to me as any other life I don't live. My 'kin' are narrow-minded, drunken, hilbillies, or equally narrow-minded creatures of a politics factory, that learned about honest work in a book.

The only identities that are left for me to hang on to is the language I speak and the color of my skin. And frankly, I do like Clark Gable and don't give a damn. I refuse to let those shallow things define me. I sometimes wish I did have a backdrop to lean on, but the way my situation time and again forces my horizon back, I am mostly content. And eternally curious.

I've learned stuff from you people here. Thnx.

#L

 

[Liar]

if nothing else I'm a facetious american .

And a damn striking one.

Sorry. Now where did that flirting thread go?...

#L

 

[CharleyH]

Excuse me if I lol
I take american to mean a bonafide you've got the right to vote if only you would register citizen although I know what you're saying and I agree that
There ain’t too many of us in this country whose bloodline is pure.

So, if we gonna go back, let’s go all the way back,
And if Adam was Black then born of his rib Eve was Black,

And if one drop of Black blood makes you Black like they say,
Then everybody’s Black anyway.

in anycase it's not what you call me that makes me me it's what I respond to.

LOL - I could only possibly be offended by . . . well I won't give anyone seedy ideas

You are right about evolution, partly, I'm thinking Lucy here, yes the, so for as I know in this moment, eldest of us all, and each of our genes can be traced from her. There are some interesting studies about this . . . anyhow too convoluted for a thread, though there is some discrepancy between the neandrethal and hominid . . .and well going into an almost anti-intellectual frame now. . .

Yes I agree with many things you say - just trying to point you to specifics to make you think, and to get you to answer pointedly. Still - I respect and understand what you are saying, I am white by colour, despite any heritage, and our immediate world is a hetero, white, all male etc. I don't have the bullshit others do - I have it easy. Think Des said something specific about growing up.

HOWEVER my sexy little vixen - you're wrong on the bible front! Lilith was a Black woman who stole Eve from Adam, and together, they decided enough was fucking enough, ate from the tree of knowledge, and Adam, the god damn sub he was, ate too, and THEN had the nerve to blame Woman! And even though Lilith is considered wikkid, she at least had the balls to transcend the walled garden - Eve followed her lead, and Adam didn't. He was a kiss ass So that's an aside - sorry . . .