WTF...and other stuff

[Guest]

Thanks, Tulip. Could you tell me why the Belgians are so abused? I have no idea. Is it a British thing only?

Perdita

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Flicka, I think Swedish women are just sluts to us. It comes from around the 60s when Americans would go to see Swedish "art" films just for the nudity and fucking. Imagine seeing an Ingmar Bergman film for the sex .

Perdita

Sluts? Us? I'm shocked.

 

[Black Tulip]

Perdita,

I don't know about the British, but I do know Belgians and Dutch are like brothers or sisters. Always getting on each other's case, but still family.

The Dutch think the Belgians are stupid beyond belief.
The Belgians believe the Dutch only have money in their pocket, it never gets spend!

How many Belgians do you need to change a light bulb? 10. One to hold the bulb, nine to rotate the house.

Who invented copper wire? Two Dutchmen fighting over a cent.

 

[oggbashan]

Thanks, Tulip. Could you tell me why the Belgians are so abused? I have no idea. Is it a British thing only?

Perdita

No. The Monty Python joke was because usually no one could think of anything unpleasant to say about Belgians. The only Belgian most Brits could think of was Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot and he was fictional.

We declared war on Germany in WWI because Germany invaded Belgium and we had a mutual defence treaty with Belgium. The Germans accused us of joining the war over "a little scrap of paper". We took our treaties and alliances seriously - we still do.

An aside about WWI. The UK declared war in the names of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland and the town of Berwick on Tweed because no one was sure whether Berwick was in England or Scotland. When the armistice and peace terms were signed at the end of WWI the signatories forgot to include Berwick on Tweed. Berwick stayed at war with the Kaiser's Imperial Germany until the 1960s when they twinned with a German Town and decided to end WWI.

Og

 

[Colleen Thomas]

No. The Monty Python joke was because usually no one could think of anything unpleasant to say about Belgians. The only Belgian most Brits could think of was Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot and he was fictional.

We declared war on Germany in WWI because Germany invaded Belgium and we had a mutual defence treaty with Belgium. The Germans accused us of joining the war over "a little scrap of paper". We took our treaties and alliances seriously - we still do.

An aside about WWI. The UK declared war in the names of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland and the town of Berwick on Tweed because no one was sure whether Berwick was in England or Scotland. When the armistice and peace terms were signed at the end of WWI the signatories forgot to include Berwick on Tweed. Berwick stayed at war with the Kaiser's Imperial Germany until the 1960s when they twinned with a German Town and decided to end WWI.

Og

Thanks, I needed a smile today and that sure brought one. That does beg a question though, was Berwick on our side in WWII? If they were still at war with the Kaiser's Germany could they also declare war on Hitler's Germany?

-Colly

 

[oggbashan]

Berwick was fixed in England by the start of WWII and included in the declaration of the UK. Why not fight two wars at once?

Another oddity: The town of Sandwich in Kent had its Mayor killed by the French during the 14th Century. His successor changed the mayoral robes from red to black until Sandwich had wreaked its revenge on the French. They still hadn't done so in the 1960s when they twinned with a French town. The French Mayor persuaded Sandwich to bury its revenge so Sandwich's Mayor now wears red again.

Og

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Berwick was fixed in England by the start of WWII and included in the declaration of the UK. Why not fight two wars at once?

Another oddity: The town of Sandwich in Kent had its Mayor killed by the French during the 14th Century. His successor changed the mayoral robes from red to black until Sandwich had wreaked its revenge on the French. They still hadn't done so in the 1960s when they twinned with a French town. The French Mayor persuaded Sandwich to bury its revenge so Sandwich's Mayor now wears red again.

Og

Love the little historical oddities

Thank you again

-Colly

 

[dirtylover]

slight change of subject

France's Premiere, Chirac, recently banned Muslims wearing a veil that covers their head and face in independent schools. The same idea is being discussed in the UK.

Is this a positive step in prohibiting the oppression of women, or negative, in that it prevents a minority behaving in a way that is one of their customs?

I know very little on this subject, and would especially like to hear the views of any Muslims out there.

 

[destinie21]

I'd say that it's a negative step as it violates a religious staple.
Also because it supports the belief system that being part of the islamic faith is somehow an admission of some imagined guilt

 

[kellycummings]

I've skimmed over this thread so maybe it's been brought up and I missed it but there are a few things that bother me.
Now, I try hard not to be racist, I really do believe that people are people, but of course none of us are perfect and we all sometimes judge people by their appearance. However, I am offended by The Miss Black America Pageant. I can understand the point of it in years past but there have been more than one black Miss Americas. Do we still need the other? It seems racist to me because it only allows african americans while the other Miss America allows anyone to be in it. If I were to hold a Miss White America I would probably be stoned to death.
I know people will defend it and that's OK, we all have our opinions and maybe I'm wrong. I'm still offended by it though.
The same can be said for awards shows and such that only acknowledge people of a certain race.
If we are all to get along then it has to be ALL of us, not just whites and not just blacks or hispanics or whatever. IMHO if there is ever to be any signifigant breakthrough in regards to race relations it has to be done by all races, not just one.
I do not mean to offend anyone and if I have done so then I sincerely apologize. I just wanted to give my opinion.

 

[destinie21]

I've skimmed over this thread so maybe it's been brought up and I missed it but there are a few things that bother me.
Now, I try hard not to be racist, I really do believe that people are people, but of course none of us are perfect and we all sometimes judge people by their appearance. However, I am offended by The Miss Black America Pageant. I can understand the point of it in years past but there have been more than one black Miss Americas. Do we still need the other? It seems racist to me because it only allows african americans while the other Miss America allows anyone to be in it. If I were to hold a Miss White America I would probably be stoned to death.
I know people will defend it and that's OK, we all have our opinions and maybe I'm wrong. I'm still offended by it though.
The same can be said for awards shows and such that only acknowledge people of a certain race.
If we are all to get along then it has to be ALL of us, not just whites and not just blacks or hispanics or whatever. IMHO if there is ever to be any signifigant breakthrough in regards to race relations it has to be done by all races, not just one.
I do not mean to offend anyone and if I have done so then I sincerely apologize. I just wanted to give my opinion.

I agree with your sentiments but I can't help but feel slightly "jaded" or perhaps suspicious about a pageant that is 75+ years old and has only had 5 african american winners. I sort of feel like maybe theres no need to call it Miss White (or non ethnic America really as other ethnicities have been overlooked as well.) with odds like that. Hell the woman that is Miss America now is black and she was the first black woman to advance from Miss florida (Miss florida has been a pageant for 60 some odd years.) I feel sad that there's still a "First" black anything still needing to be achived. BTW there's also a miss latino usa and probably other ethnic sub pageants.

Still like I said I understand your sentiments and I can't think of anything I'd like more than the absence such things, or at the very least the absence of the "need" for such things.

 

[Guest]

Kelly, I don't care about beauty pageants, they're all sexist to me. Perhaps by definition or law the Ms. Black contest is discriminatory, but not by any means truly racist. I hope you are not too upset about it, there's a lot more discrimination and racist issues really worth fretting about.

SF has a Miss Chinatown contest, can't imagine anyone protesting that a white, Mexican, black or Japanese can't be "Miss Chinatown".

Perdita

 

[destinie21]

Kelly, I don't care about beauty pageants, they're all sexist to me. Perhaps by definition or law the Ms. Black contest is discriminatory, but not by any means truly racist. I hope you are not too upset about it, there's a lot more discrimination and racist issues really worth fretting about.

SF has a Miss Chinatown contest, can't imagine anyone protesting that a white, Mexican, black or Japanese can't be "Miss Chinatown".

Perdita

Guess we posted at the same time
anyway your comment made me smile because the sponsers of such pageants call them scholarship contests and what not now.
I think it's laughable because when you apply for a nomal scholarship there's no need to prance about with a swimsuit glued to your ass (literally to avoid riding) and vaseline smeared on your teeth (for that slow easy smile.)

Can you imagine the backlash of such things
luckily this is hidden beneath the guise of beauty so it's not quite so hard to accept even when it's staring you right in the face

 

[kellycummings]

Kelly, I don't care about beauty pageants, they're all sexist to me. Perhaps by definition or law the Ms. Black contest is discriminatory, but not by any means truly racist. I hope you are not too upset about it, there's a lot more discrimination and racist issues really worth fretting about.

SF has a Miss Chinatown contest, can't imagine anyone protesting that a white, Mexican, black or Japanese can't be "Miss Chinatown".

Perdita

There are more important things. My point was only that all people need to work on it. Not just whites. While white are to blame for a whole lot of bad things they are not the only ones that discriminate. If african americans or latinos or whoever continue to exclude all but their own race then aren't they just as guilty?
Do whites need to work on it more than others? Probably. But others still have to do their share.

 

[destinie21]

Guess we posted at the same time
anyway your comment made me smile because the sponsers of such pageants call them scholarship contests and what not now.
I think it's laughable because when you apply for a nomal scholarship there's no need to prance about with a swimsuit glued to your ass (literally to avoid riding) and vaseline smeared on your teeth (for that slow easy smile.)

Can you imagine the backlash of such things
luckily this is hidden beneath the guise of beauty so it's not quite so hard to accept even when it's staring you right in the face

(BTW I may appear to be mumbling but thats only cos it's hard to talk with my tongue pushed into my cheek like this.)

 

[Colleen Thomas]

The miss black america pagent is racist. The miss Latino USA pagent is racist. Awards of any kind that are black, latino, asian etc. are racist.

By definition if a prerequisite to winning or participating is your ethnicity than the contest is racist. While solid argumnets can and have been made that such separate awards are neccissary because the supposedly "open" awards are defacto descriminatory in nature, it does not change the fact that a contest that precludes any contestant from another race is racist.

There is a solid argument that beauty pagents are sexist. Unless a man can enter then the contest is, by definition sexist as participation is limited on the basis of your sex.

Kelly has a very good point, if the goal is to have a color blind society then any contest that descriminates on the basis of race alone is part of the problem and not part of the solution. The fly in the ointment of such a simple and obvious fact is the question of how long carrying on separate contests needs to be done to provide an even playing field. Despite the abolisment of slavery in 1865 african americans have not truly been citizens on the same footing with whites for more than 50 years. So perhaps it is still a neccesity to hold pagents and awards cermonies and to give scolarships based on race in an effort to provide equality of opportunity for all.

At some point however these separate contests must be defined as racist endeavors and their end must be persued with the same fervor that all blatantly racist agendas must be, if quality is to be achieved for all in a color blind society.


-Colly

 

[Guest]

Colly, I disagree with you. I am not going to revert to a dictionary or the law though, and hope you get my point. The contests by skin color or country of origin are not racist. They are discriminatory. In a typical racist situation one group excludes another because they are thought to be evil, stupid, non-human, whatever. That's history. The Miss Chinatown pageant does not exclude non-Chinese for those reasons, it's purpose is to celebrate Chinese New Year's. I presume 'black miss america' celebrates Black women, vs. hating white women. You simply cannot have a white Black woman.

Perdita

 

[RenzaJones]

I wasn't going to post on this thread only because such threads tend to be built on supposition and vehement opinions that spin off into usless debates. However this one has remained civil, and is not at all what I thought it would be. Anyway I just wanted to say that there is a difference between celebrating ethnicity and racism.

 

[Liar]

(Intentionally annoying for the sake of the argument-mode ON)

Then can someone start a Miss White America pageant contest without getting called a racist?

(Intentionally annoying for the sake of the argument-mode OFF)

No opinion, just trowing in a ball to see if someone throws it back.


By the way, I remember there was a male contestant in a Women beauty pageant (I think it was a regional Miss Australia event, but I can't Google up any articles about it...) a few years back. The rules did in fact not exclude men.

He didn't win though.

 

[RenzaJones]

(Intentionally annoying for the sake of the argument-mode ON)

Then can someone start a Miss White America pageant contest without getting called a racist?

(Intentionally annoying for the sake of the argument-mode OFF)

No opinion, just trowing in a ball to see if someone throws it back.


By the way, I remember there was a male contestant in a Women beauty pageant (I think it was a regional Miss Australia event, but I can't Google up any articles about it...) a few years back. The rules did in fact not exclude men.

He didn't win though.

White isn't an ethnicity so to speak so yes because Miss White America would entail the exclusion of people whose ethnicity comes with brown skin. (not just brown but I can't stand the word "colored") Having a Miss White America would not be in celebration of any one ethnicity but would exclude many.

 

[kellycummings]

White isn't an ethnicity so to speak so yes because Miss White America would entail the exclusion of people whose ethnicity comes with brown skin. (not just brown but I can't stand the word "colored") Having a Miss White America would not be in celebration of any one ethnicity but would exclude many.

You have a very valid point and have actually made me look at it a little differently. I still believe that things won't get better until everyone, not just whites, stops putting people into groups. However, you're right, celebrating a persons ethnicity is perfectly fine and should not be discouraged.
However, if a white South African were to join the Ms. Black America pageant, wouldn't that create an uproar? All are african but with different skin color. Maybe that isn't the best example but it was the best I could come up with. Just a point I'm trying to make and nothing more, playing devils advocate.

 

[Guest]

(Intentionally annoying for the sake of the argument-mode ON)
Then can someone start a Miss White America pageant contest without getting called a racist?

The point is that they don't have to call it Miss White America. (See the numbers above on how many Black Miss Am's there have been.)

Perdita

 

[RenzaJones]

You have a very valid point and have actually made me look at it a little differently. I still believe that things won't get better until everyone, not just whites, stops putting people into groups. However, you're right, celebrating a persons ethnicity is perfectly fine and should not be discouraged.
However, if a white South African were to join the Ms. Black America pageant, wouldn't that create an uproar? All are african but with different skin color. Maybe that isn't the best example but it was the best I could come up with. Just a point I'm trying to make and nothing more, playing devils advocate.

That's why it's called the Miss Black Usa Pageant and not the Miss African Usa Pageant. It's a celebration of the black women in america.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colly, I disagree with you. I am not going to revert to a dictionary or the law though, and hope you get my point. The contests by skin color or country of origin are not racist. They are discriminatory. In a typical racist situation one group excludes another because they are thought to be evil, stupid, non-human, whatever. That's history. The Miss Chinatown pageant does not exclude non-Chinese for those reasons, it's purpose is to celebrate Chinese New Year's. I presume 'black miss america' celebrates Black women, vs. hating white women. You simply cannot have a white Black woman.

Perdita

I view anything that instituionalizes separation of people by race to be racist Dita. I am not one to promote a color blind society, I love the feminie form and African American women have a beauty that is all their own. The same goes for Asain women and Scandinavians and Latin women. Women in general.

The problem with having contests that are discriminatory by design is that you perpetuate the idea that the group being "celebrated" is inherently different from everyone else. It is extremely hard to say descrimination is still a problem in this nation when you are holding your very own descriminatory beauty contest, awards cerimonies etc. By saying we (whoever we is) are different and need our own contest, you are saying you are different on some level.

In the minds of those who are not full fledged racists (i.e. those who cannot be changed) but are predjudical it begins to seem like base hypocracy when you yell today that you are holding the miss black america contest, initiating the Latino college fund, or the Asian music awards and then turn around tomorrow and decry that you shouldn't be treated differently at the job interview or at the bank or anywhere else. The message minorities are sending is contradictory and that is, in my opinion bad.

It tends to emphasise how we are different, rather than how we are alike.

I do not mean to say cultural diversity should be drowned in a single "culture". Nor do I intend to suggest that a pagent celebrating the beauty of Black women is bad.

What I do mean to suggest is that by staging an event where you discriminate against others, you weaken your argument that you are being discriminated against in the minds of those who do not already hold a strong inclination one way or the other.

In short, the people you can reach with the message that discrimination hurts us all and still is perpetuated are the ones you are sending a mixed message to. It becomes extremely easy for those who have a strong racial biase to say there is no discrimination anymore, they just want it both ways. That argument becomes extremely hard to refute when the minority in question is actively separating themselves from the rest of society along racial lines.

-Colly

 

[kellycummings]

That's why it's called the Miss Black Usa Pageant and not the Miss African Usa Pageant. It's a celebration of the black women in america.

I understand that but just as "white" isn't an ethnicity, neither is "black". They are just the color of someones skin and have nothing at all to do with their ethnic background.