WTF...and other stuff

[Black Tulip]

Renza, interesting point.

I have been following this thread, but had not much to contribute.

White not being a single race:
I remember being in Kuala Lumpur with my son (8) and my diabetic father (78). Yes, my father messed up so we had to visit a hospital there. Since he was feeling not too well and didn't speak foreign languages I took care of the paperwork. Almost to the end of the numerous forms the nurse asked: "What race?"
I just stood there with my mouth open. I really had no clue. Finally I managed to answer, but not very intelligently I'm afraid: "I don't know, we don't do that in the Netherlands."

My dad went down as without a race. We laughed ourselves silly over that. The mongrel man, and all that.

But to this day, I have no idea what race I could have given.

Just a contribution from the other side of the spectrum.

 

[Liar]

White isn't an ethnicity so to speak so yes because Miss White America would entail the exclusion of people whose ethnicity comes with brown skin. (not just brown but I can't stand the word "colored") Having a Miss White America would not be in celebration of any one ethnicity but would exclude many.

Ok. Caucasians in the US is in fact from a plethora of different ethnic origins. Slavic, Irish, Gemanian, Nordic et al.

(And then, a Miss Irish American is perfectly fine?)

But isn't black americans the same? Do they all derive from the same afican ethnic group, or from many different, like the white? I guess I never got to study the slavery history at any depth. (It's pretty far from the daily issues here in Sweden. Maybe I need a crash course...)


And also, a broader perspective question for the scholars: when does an ethnicity form? How far back should you trace an ethnic belonging. I'm a redhead snow white fellow with roots in Russia, medieval Sweden, Hungary, Portugal and Finnish Saami natives. Wherew do I stop being either of that, and find a new cultural and historical belonging closer to home? How many generations must pass before a general "new American" (as opposed to Native American) ethnical identity grows forth, for people with no attachment whatsoever to the ancestors' homeland and culture?

If the answer is that that can't ever happen, and you are of the ethnic group that you are, then we're all africans. Yes, me Darwininst.

 

[Guest]

Colly, thanks for your response. I still do not agree with you. I don't think any white person, however sensitive or intimately involved (with me anyway) can get what I was saying. Does that put a wall between us? Yes. It's my reality. (But for me, it's an inconsequential wall with friends ).

Perdita

 

[kellycummings]

Originally posted by Liar
If the answer is that that can't ever happen, and you are of the ethnic group that you are, then we're all africans. [/B]

Good point.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I don't like Beauty contests at all, but I dislike this dividing into different groups even more. There's too much grouping in society, too much "we and them".

We shouldn't isolate ourselves with people who look just like us, but get out and interact with others, or we'll never develop beyond the age of 3, mentally.

 

[Guest]

Just a note to show how complicated the issues are.

I read a fine book called something like How the Irish Became White. When they first came to the states they were regarded as of less worth than black slaves because slaves were property and could prove a financial loss. Therefore the Irish were sent to do the most dangerous work (e.g., mining) in case they should get killed doing it.

You might ask a Jew how he or she feels about being accepted as 'white'.

Perdita

 

[RenzaJones]

I understand that but just as "white" isn't an ethnicity, neither is "black". They are just the color of someones skin and have nothing at all to do with their ethnic background.

Black isn't an actual ethnicity but it came to be an accepted term when nigger and colored and such were no longer accepted as anything but a slur. African american was a phrase coined later when people decided to be even more politically correct in defining the roots of ethnicity. A south african would actually be African american although not necessarily black.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colly, thanks for your response. I still do not agree with you. I don't think any white person, however sensitive or intimately involved (with me anyway) can get what I was saying. Does that put a wall between us? Yes. It's my reality. (But for me, it's an inconsequential wall with friends ).

Perdita

I am white so the honest truth is I can probably never understand what Blacks, Hispanics, Asians or any other ethnic group go through. But I won't give up on trying to understand, because I really believe the only chance any of us have to end racial descrimination is to understand one another.

-Colly

 

[kellycummings]

Black isn't an actual ethnicity but it came to be an accepted term when nigger and colored and such were no longer accepted as anything but a slur. African american was a phrase coined later when people decided to be even more politically correct in defining the roots of ethnicity. A south african would actually be African american although not necessarily black.

And that is my point about Ms. Black USA. It seems to be more about color than ethnic background. Maybe that is not the intention but that's how it comes off.

 

[kellycummings]

I am white so the honest truth is I can probably never understand what Blacks, Hispanics, Asians or any other ethnic group go through. But I won't give up on trying to understand, because I really believe the only chance any of us have to end racial descrimination is to understand one another.

-Colly

All races have different trials that they have to endure. Whites do have it easier but that is not to say that we are not discriminated against.
You are perfectly correct, until we all learn to understand or at the very least tolerate, then it will never end.

 

[RenzaJones]

And that is my point about Ms. Black USA. It seems to be more about color than ethnic background. Maybe that is not the intention but that's how it comes off.

Being black in america is different than being african american and if you really want to split hairs south africa was dominated by another county (take the dutch for example) so if we were going to real go to ethnicity for ethnicites sake then you could say a white south african could therby be a person of dutch descent from south africa might well be a dutch american. African American was just a verbal identifier. In any case the celebration is about being black not hailing from africa.

 

[Liar]

The point is that they don't have to call it Miss White America. (See the numbers above on how many Black Miss Am's there have been.)

Perdita

Isn't this the same problem that I had when I got hassled for not contracting any women at work? Almost no women had applied for the positions. How many black women vs white women enter the competition? If the competitors, as well as the other roles engaged in such an event (arrangers, local judges), were evenly distributed between races and ethnicities, I'll bet there'd been more both latin and black winners.

It's the general culture of the arrangement that is traditionally white, becuse that's the part of america that gives a burger about the thing. Look at the ms Uni finals. Latin Americans are dominating. India always scores high. White? Neiner. Why? Because the origins of the participants are all very different.

#L

ps, Before I say anything and step on toes, here's a rain check on an apology. I'm debating for the same of debating here. Haggling these kind of things is fun. And educational. These are complex issues, and since I understand that ther are not the complete mess that I as an outsider see, I'm forcing you to get your act together and explain stuff to this imbecile.

 

[kellycummings]

Being black in america is different than being african american and if you really want to split hairs south africa was dominated by another county (take the dutch for example) so if we were going to real go to ethnicity for ethnicites sake then you could say a white south african could therby be a person of dutch descent from south africa might well be a dutch american. African American was just a verbal identifier. In any case the celebration is about being black not hailing from africa.

Well, I feel like maybe I have offended you or come close to it and that was not my intention. We all have our own opinions and I agree with some of what you have said and disagree with some.
Either way, I'm gonna let it go at that because I don't want to offend anyone.
Hopefully someday there will not be a need for a thread like this.

 

[RenzaJones]

Well, I feel like maybe I have offended you or come close to it and that was not my intention. We all have our own opinions and I agree with some of what you have said and disagree with some.
Either way, I'm gonna let it go at that because I don't want to offend anyone.
Hopefully someday there will not be a need for a thread like this.

I'm not offended just attempting to explain.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

And that is my point about Ms. Black USA. It seems to be more about color than ethnic background. Maybe that is not the intention but that's how it comes off.

There is a problem in this argument. Most blacks can not trace thier heritage back to their place of orign. They were brought here against their will and everything that could be done to rob them of their ethnic identity was done. In effect an artificially homogenous ethnicity was fostered upon them, an ethnicity based souly on the color of thier skin and their place in society.

I can look back many generations and tell you where my forebearers came from. So I have an ethnicity that goes beyond just being white. I am Scots-Irish. Most blacks who aren't recent immigrants can go back no further than the generation that first arrived here in the U.S.

So while the contest may seem to be more about color than ethnicity, in point of fact most black people's ethnic identity is tied to their color by the common background of being the descendants of slaves. Most cannot tell you if they are descended from Two in Rawanda, or Hutu's in Brunai or Tutsi's from the Congo because that part of their ethnicity was stripped from them.

-Colly

-Colly

 

[destinie21]

Isn't this the same problem that I had when I got hassled for not contracting any women at work? Almost no women had applied for the positions. How many black women vs white women enter the competition? If the competitors, as well as the other roles engaged in such an event (arrangers, local judges), were evenly distributed between races and ethnicities, I'll bet there'd been more both latin and black winners.

It's the general culture of the arrangement that is traditionally white, becuse that's the part of america that gives a burger about the thing. Look at the ms Uni finals. Latin Americans are dominating. India always scores high. White? Neiner. Why? Because the origins of the participants are all very different.

#L

ps, Before I say anything and step on toes, here's a rain check on an apology. I'm debating for the same of debating here. Haggling these kind of things is fun.

The question isn't how many black woman tried for it it's how many even placed in their state (even after raccial restrictions were removed.) You have to win in your state first.

 

[destinie21]

There is a problem in this argument. Most blacks can not trace thier heritage back to their place of orign. They were brought here against their will and everything that could be done to rob them of their ethnic identity was done. In effect an artificially homogenous ethnicity was fostered upon them, an ethnicity based souly on the color of thier skin and their place in society.

I can look back many generations and tell you where my forebearers came from. So I have an ethnicity that goes beyond just being white. I am Scots-Irish. Most blacks who aren't recent immigrants can go back no further than the generation that first arrived here in the U.S.

So while the contest may seem to be more about color than ethnicity, in point of fact most black people's ethnic identity is tied to their color by the common background of being the descendants of slaves. Most cannot tell you if they are descended from Two in Rawanda, or Hutu's in Brunai or Tutsi's from the Congo because that part of their ethnicity was stripped from them.

-Colly

-Colly

I was just about to go there but no need now, also just for the sake of throwing it in there's still the "slave mentality" of if you have an ounce of black in you then you're automatically black. Many times all other ethnicities are trumped by blackness.

 

[Liar]

The question isn't how many black woman tried for it it's how many even placed in their state (even after raccial restrictions were removed.) You have to win in your state first.

So with a white dominance in each state, only white contestants will reach the finals. Just like your regional election system then. (Ok, sorry, let's not go there now )

So, either change the rules somehow to get a better demographic spread in the finals, or flood a few states with black contestants. Can't be totally impossible. There were gorgeous women of all hues wherever I looked in any semi-urban area last time I was in the US.

Ok, I've got to stop this. I'm actually debating the ins and outs of a beauty pageant thing. Option three then: Screw it. It's just a silly freakshow anyway.

#L

 

[CharleyH]

Flicka, I think Swedish women are just sluts to us. It comes from around the 60s when Americans would go to see Swedish "art" films just for the nudity and fucking. Imagine seeing an Ingmar Bergman film for the sex .

Perdita

Cries and Whispers?

Will go back to lurking now . . .

 

[Guest]

Cries and Whispers?

Ch., I recall liking the film though I don't think I'd watch it again. But earlier I was speaking of the earlier very morose B&W films. P.

 

[RenzaJones]

Ok. Caucasians in the US is in fact from a plethora of different ethnic origins. Slavic, Irish, Gemanian, Nordic et al.

(And then, a Miss Irish American is perfectly fine?)

But isn't black americans the same? Do they all derive from the same afican ethnic group, or from many different, like the white? I guess I never got to study the slavery history at any depth. (It's pretty far from the daily issues here in Sweden. Maybe I need a crash course...)


.[/COLOR]

The ethnic groups for black people have become to blurred without any clear records of history set in america. In anycase because the water so to speak were muddued not only with the loss of history but also with the "breeding" that years of slavery propogated the phrase african american was coined as an acceptable verbal identifier. At the time it apparently seemed better than being black or colored or nigger since those words had long since been associated with shame.


Miss Irish america would be fine because it would be celebrating Irish culture in America.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

With most of Hollywood, and most of the toyworld, being based on the looks of white females, I can understand that it would be great to have more role models of other ethinicities.

But I still think that separating us into groups will only strengthen the isolation.

 

[CharleyH]

Being black in america is different than being african american and if you really want to split hairs south africa was dominated by another county (take the dutch for example) so if we were going to real go to ethnicity for ethnicites sake then you could say a white south african could therby be a person of dutch descent from south africa might well be a dutch american. African American was just a verbal identifier. In any case the celebration is about being black not hailing from africa.

Yes, good point and interesting thought you have put in my mind from this post.

So what is an American? Is my serious point.

Seems none of us, if we trace back, are from North America, no, not even natives, and probably none of us are completely white, black, hispanic, Asian or otherwise . . . somewhere . . . there is a gene. There always is . . .

Anyhow, yes - I live with a Jamaican-Philipino - German Canadian, and I happen to be a Hungarian-British-Scottish-German-Jewish-Catholic-Trinidadian-French Mennonite - So, what of it.

 

[destinie21]

With most of Hollywood, and most of the toyworld, being based on the looks of white females, I can understand that it would be great to have more role models of other ethinicities.

But I still think that separating us into groups will only strengthen the isolation.

I understand where you're coming from and I don't want to come off sounding militant or or as though I'm touting black nationalism but the fact is that what's being construed as separatism is really only holding on to a sense of pride. What I think will really strengthen people as a whole is unity in diversity. Saying that there's no difference between races or that we should forget those differences is a moot point. Of course one race isn't better than another but I still think we should embrace our differences.

 

[Guest]

Once more, with feeling. I am spurred on by the posts here, but please, I hope no white persons take offence, esp. those of you I am closest to.

I don't want segregation or isolationism, but I do want to just be me, and that is Mexican on many very personal levels. I don't want to blend in or join in or lose any of the indentity I was born with, grew up with, researched, lost and found, etc. I don't want to only be around other Mexicans either. But, please, don't keep trying to strip me for the sake of a non-existant, undesired (by me) utopian world.

It's so easy for whites to say, let's all be one, or let's all just be human beings. How's this for an analogy? What if all the UK people were told to "just be English" and everyone speak 'received English' or whatever it's called, and everyone have identical vocabularies and maxims, habits, manners, etc.

Anyone here long enough knows Gauche is Yorkshire, adamantly so. AlexDK is a Geordy (or Geordie?). Someone's from Manchester. So you live on the same island, but you like your own kith or kind, eh?

Perdita