Female Lit authors: How much unsolicited sexual advances have you dealt with as a result of your writing?

[Kelliezgirl]

It's often used to excuse the behavior of grown men. Has nothing to do with development or how how the genders are 'wired'. It's socialized behavior that favors boys and men doing things that people turn a blind eye to.

The only time I ever hear it being used is by people making strawman arguments.

 

[C0RLoCK]

I feel a story is a story, regardless of content. I am not an author or writer, I am simply a reader, so please forgive my intrusion, however, I felt the need to interject. Being a storyteller, doesn't necessarily mean that you have done any of the things you write about (Even if you have...). I am a man whom loves stories in general, especially love stories, because stories to me are a way to make one feel emotions spiritually (sometimes even physically), as well as to convey messages and lessons from the past, or present; or simply to take ones mind off of the stagnant reality that they currently live in and give them a glimpse of something... more. I have the highest respect to you authors and storyweavers, you take my mind to places outside of my current reality, and I have no preconceptions whatsoever. Please continue to write without expectations and with light hearts, and take me to many more wonderful places, make me feel wonderful emotions, and take me on many adventures. My heartfelt thanks to you all.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Many guys treat dating like fishing - “just keep throwing your line out there, eventually you’ll get a bite.” In school or other places where big cross sections of people are thrown together I can see over and over where aggressiveness is rewarded with making it past the first introduction.

That's pretty much what dating is for most men. Women outnumber us, are generally more selective, and I imagine dealing with the amount of advances is like Laurel with submissions. So you're out there casting every pole, knowing maybe two will get a bite and maybe one of those bites will be a catch. While you're fishing in the lake, so are several other men that may have a better boat with better equipment, more poles, bigger poles, some on rickety boats with a stick, string and a paper clip. Dating is fucked up and modern dating just makes shit worse.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The only time I ever hear it being used is by people making strawman arguments.

https://www.latimes.com/nation/nati...-rape-case-sexism-justice-20140217-story.html

...federal officials said, when one mother asked a county attorney why an adolescent boy who assaulted her 5-year-old daughter had only received two years of community service, the attorney responded, “boys will be boys.”

https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/sticky-fingers-interview/9646656
[Interview with a band who were accused of racism, sexism, and violence against women. No transcript available AFAICT.]
Around 11:29 on transcript:

Interviewer: Dylan, a lot of the accusations have been against you as an individual, but you're the one who's not really talking in this interview. Can you explain to me why that is?
Dylan: I guess I'm not that good at interviews, you know. And in the past, my ah, you know, my violence in my past... under the influence... I guess, you know, fucking, boys will be boys, you know? And, that's not what I'm, that's not what I'm here to promote, peace and love, you know?
Interviewer: What did you mean when you just said 'boys will be boys'?
Dylan: Shit happens, man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabozny_v._Podlesny

At age 11, Jamie Nabozny was molested by an 18-year-old church youth group leader named Nick Rising. He kept this abuse secret until Rising attempted to molest Jamie's younger brother. Rising was arrested, pleaded guilty at trial and went to jail. The scandal was reported in a local newspaper. A number of the bullies who were harassing Nabozny were friendly with Rising and blamed Nabozny for reporting the sexual assaults.

Nabozny's parents complained repeatedly about the bullying but after no action was taken by the principal, they pulled Jamie out of school and transferred him to a Catholic middle school to finish seventh grade. The cost of the tuition fees meant that he dropped out shortly after starting eighth grade. Jamie Nabozny had to return to the middle school where he endured more harassment, homophobic language and physical violence. In one incident, Jamie and his brother Corey were physically assaulted by a group of boys in the bathrooms.

Following this harassment, Bob and Carol Nabozny complained again to the school and demanded a meeting with the Principal. At the meeting with the Nabozny family and a number of the boys who Jamie had accused of bullying, the Principal took the word of the bullies and then also later told Jamie Nabozny that if he continued to be out about his sexual orientation at school, the bullying would continue. The bullies faced no disciplinary actions and the harassment continued. Following a number of bullies verbally abusing him, inappropriately touching him and then enacting a mock rape while the rest of his class watched, Nabozny went to the principal who told him that "boys will be boys" and admonished him for entering her office without an appointment. The continued bullying at middle school led to Nabozny attempting suicide, after which he refused to return to middle school.

https://forum.literotica.com/threads/chaos-to-be-continued.1562210/page-910#post-94988072

The Vikings got around
If you have any roots in Northern Europe, odds are you have a taint of Viking in you.
All that rampaging pillaging and raping.. and more raping. Boys will be boys.
“No” didn’t quite cut it back then, and there was no #metoo movement. Men have been civilized by womankind, well, we are getting there.
Don’t look at Ukraine at the moment!!

https://forum.literotica.com/threads/staring-at-bra-less-women.1548421/#post-93982278

I would agree with you there. I have listened to a lot of women complaining about pervy guys, but I think "gee Hon, you sort of have everything hanging out there". Boys will be boys, if you have our goodies on display then expect attention. Be happy you can turn heads.

https://forum.literotica.com/threads/real-peeping.1492244/#post-90221745

I know the neighbors like to watch me through the window. Boys will be boys...

https://forum.literotica.com/threads/panty-sniffing.1488549/#post-90184611
[re. boys sniffing women's panties]

Our Guest bathroom hamper has been known to be sorted through on occasion. Boys will be boys...

It's often used to excuse the behavior of grown men. Has nothing to do with development or how how the genders are 'wired'. It's socialized behavior that favors boys and men doing things that people turn a blind eye to.

Yup. I've known way too many decent guys to believe that all boys and men are just helpless slaves to their biology. I know they can do better.

Even the assholes somehow manage to resist those biological urges when it comes to women who are in a position to do something about it. All those guys who can't help harassing their secretaries but somehow are perfectly able to resist harassing their own female bosses...

 

[Omenainen]

I struggle to stand up for myself, to see any value or worth in myself and that has gradually shifted in the right direction since I started writing here. I don't want to give that up just because a few dozen guys out of maybe a hundred I've interacted with want to behave as though societal expectations of decorum end at a log in screen. I shouldn't have to choose between a hobby I enjoy and being treated with the most basic level of humanity and that's all I'm asking for.

You don’t need to choose. And, by the looks of it, you’ve made friends who are less inhibited in standing up for you. That’s so good! Sometimes, there’s no need to be able to do everything by ourselves, at least all at once or all of the time.

I got to express myself here in a way I've never been able to before. I was able to unmask for the first time in my life and feel comfortable within my own skin.

This is excellent news. Keep it up. (Not the mask. That you should keep down. Not that I’m telling you what to do.)

I'm starting to regret thinking that was ever a possibility for me because, as usual, I fucked it up and I'm sorry.

It is possible for you, and you did not fuck it up. Sending energy your way

 

[pink_silk_glove]

When you said, "I think the major issue is that for the longest time, men simply weren't taught to control themselves.".

That's nonsense.

Not really. The times have continually become less and less taboo. There have always been certain expectations that adults have for their behavior in society, but since there was so much taboo back in the day, we weren't allowed to discuss these things. So we sent our children forth into the world with expectations of behaving yet without the tools to behave since we weren't allowed to talk about such behaviors.

Now that there is generally less taboo subjects, we know more when we reach adulthood than the generations before did and we have a better chance of understanding the expectations of behavior.

 

[stickygirl]

We've taken a completely innocuous phrase like "Boys will be boys" and twisted it into something to fit an agenda.

Mothers have told it to small boys with muddy shirts, told it to older ones with bloodied noses and, as Bramblethorn has illustrated, applied it to rapists and violent men. What we're taught as children we take into adulthood, but as adults we ought to have a more enlightened perspective and not resort to playground excuses as a get-out-of-jail card.

What irks me is that it's an excuse perpetuated and condoned by women more than it is by men. Men saw their mothers nodding in approval or comically rolling their eyes when they heard it and then presume it's a coverall excuse for 'men will be men'. It's as big a lie as 'big boys don't cry' - another maternal piece of BS.

There's no strawman there but I smell devil's advocate. If nothing else you've given an opportunity to prove why your opinion is so wrong so I'm grateful to you for that.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I want to point out that threads like this one show that many among us here are lonely souls yearning to express themselves and not just erotically. We spoke a lot about how anonymity on the Internet lets people act like assholes and creeps because there are no consequences, but it also allows us to pour out our souls to people who are essentially strangers, often like-minded ones.
I often rant and criticize Lit for many things, but this is one aspect where Lit truly shines.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

There's no strawman there but I smell devil's advocate. If nothing else you've given an opportunity to prove why your opinion is so wrong so I'm grateful to you for that.

When are you going to get around to proving me wrong?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

https://www.latimes.com/nation/nati...-rape-case-sexism-justice-20140217-story.html



https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/sticky-fingers-interview/9646656
[Interview with a band who were accused of racism, sexism, and violence against women. No transcript available AFAICT.]
Around 11:29 on transcript:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabozny_v._Podlesny


https://forum.literotica.com/threads/chaos-to-be-continued.1562210/page-910#post-94988072


https://forum.literotica.com/threads/staring-at-bra-less-women.1548421/#post-93982278


https://forum.literotica.com/threads/real-peeping.1492244/#post-90221745


https://forum.literotica.com/threads/panty-sniffing.1488549/#post-90184611
[re. boys sniffing women's panties]




Yup. I've known way too many decent guys to believe that all boys and men are just helpless slaves to their biology. I know they can do better.

Even the assholes somehow manage to resist those biological urges when it comes to women who are in a position to do something about it. All those guys who can't help harassing their secretaries but somehow are perfectly able to resist harassing their own female bosses...

So, it's a huge widespread problem and you manage to find two cases, one almost 10 years old and another almost 30 years old.
Then when you couldn't find a bunch of cases, you resorted to quoting works of fiction.
If we get to quote Literotica you could probably make a case that incest was super common.
The whole argument rests on the idea that boys are somehow excused, or not "held accountable", yet research plainly shows boys are disciplined at a MUCH higher rate than girls.
Here is just one example.
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/crdc-discipline-snapshot.pdf

That's the case at every level, boys get disciplined at a higher rate in school, they are incarcerated at a higher rate as adults.
Where is this supposed "lack of accountability"?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Not really. The times have continually become less and less taboo. There have always been certain expectations that adults have for their behavior in society, but since there was so much taboo back in the day, we weren't allowed to discuss these things. So we sent our children forth into the world with expectations of behaving yet without the tools to behave since we weren't allowed to talk about such behaviors.

Now that there is generally less taboo subjects, we know more when we reach adulthood than the generations before did and we have a better chance of understanding the expectations of behavior.

I think you have it just exactly backwards.
Those taboos you want to smash are the things that prevented 99% of the behaviors that you now consider offensive.

 

[MrHereWriting]

When are you going to get around to proving me wrong?

They won't.

They have co-opted the phrase, and therefor it means what they want it to mean, not what it was intended to mean, proving your initial statement correct.

From, Ask a Historian, on Reddit. The first post by lord_mayor_of_reddit, gives us a nice history of the phrase, and other such phrases, completed with citations/sources. My own words in the sample I've provided are in parenthesis.

"This term came from a Latin proverb, translated as 'Children [boys] are children [boys] and do childish things.' In English it was first recorded in 1589." (As any parent should know, children doing childish things is usually a teachable moment, depending on their age.)

(Below is a phrase that should always accompany "Boys will be boys" when it's used as an excuse.)

One last item: while none of the resources mention it, there's a well-known proverbial phrase found in the Bible verse 1 Corinthians 13:11:

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."


People who misuse the phrase to fit their agenda (as you said) should be taught a history lesson, whether they're using it as an excuse of their criminal actions or attempting to weaponize it against a specific "systemic culture" they've decided to hate.

You would think that some individuals on here, who value intelligence, history, and proper usage, would attempt to use the phrase correctly, and educate those who don't.


And to address the topic of "unsolicited sexual advances" on Lit, the answer to that is: Yes, I have, from both men and women, but aren't most sexual advances unsolicited? I guess, "Would you like to have dinner?" is just a nicer way of asking, "Wanna fuck?"

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I think you have it just exactly backwards.
Those taboos you want to smash are the things that prevented 99% of the behaviors that you now consider offensive.

What do I consider offensive and how do you discern my offense?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

What do I consider offensive and how do you discern my offense?

So, how should someone determine a wanted vs. unwanted advance?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

A helpful guide to "wanted" vs. "unwanted" advances.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

So, how should someone determine a wanted vs. unwanted advance?

And how's the weather in Mauritius?

If you can't engage me intellectually, then forget it.

 

[alohadave]

They won't.

They have co-opted the phrase, and therefor it means what they want it to mean, not what it was intended to mean, proving your initial statement correct.

From, Ask a Historian, on Reddit. The first post by lord_mayor_of_reddit, gives us a nice history of the phrase, and other such phrases, completed with citations/sources. My own words in the sample I've provided are in parenthesis.

"This term came from a Latin proverb, translated as 'Children [boys] are children [boys] and do childish things.' In English it was first recorded in 1589." (As any parent should know, children doing childish things is usually a teachable moment, depending on their age.)

(Below is a phrase that should always accompany "Boys will be boys" when it's used as an excuse.)

One last item: while none of the resources mention it, there's a well-known proverbial phrase found in the Bible verse 1 Corinthians 13:11:

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."


People who misuse the phrase to fit their agenda (as you said) should be taught a history lesson, whether they're using it as an excuse of their criminal actions or attempting to weaponize it against a specific "systemic culture" they've decided to hate.

You would think that some individuals on here, who value intelligence, history, and proper usage, would attempt to use the phrase correctly, and educate those who don't.


And to address the topic of "unsolicited sexual advances" on Lit, the answer to that is: Yes, I have, from both men and women, but aren't most sexual advances unsolicited? I guess, "Would you like to have dinner?" is just a nicer way of asking, "Wanna fuck?"

How a term was used 400+ years ago has no bearing on how it's used now. Language shifts and drifts and usage changes.

It's all well and good to know the history, but it's irrelevant if people don't use it that way now.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

And how's the weather in Mauritius?

If you can't engage me intellectually, then forget it.

That's a childish answer from someone who claims to want an intellectual response.

You claim we "sent children out with the expectation to behave, but not the tools".
Those taboos were the tools. We taught people that there were things you didn't do in polite society, they were taboo, and sent them out with that.
What's your basis for the idea that we need to talk about why showing your dick to complete strangers is taboo? How does having a conversation about it ensure better behavior than simply saying "don't do that idiot".
One can make a compelling case that people were better behaved BEFORE we started tearing down all those taboos.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

How a term was used 400+ years ago has no bearing on how it's used now. Language shifts and drifts and usage changes.

It's all well and good to know the history, but it's irrelevant if people don't use it that way now.

And there is how YOU use it today and how other people use it today.
You are using the Humpty Dumpty argument, it means exactly what YOU say it means and trying to co-opt it.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Morning all,

I think what we have learned here is that different women can have different perspectives on what constitutes unwanted sexual attention and on how severely different types of attention are viewed.

This is not really awfully surprising. We are no more a monolithic whole than men are. We are all influenced in our opinions by our personalities and experiences.

A woman who has played around with sexting may view a cyber approach from a guy differently to one who has not (anyone who says women don’t sext is getting into the madonna view of females - on a sex site!) They might view it as no different to “can I buy you a drink?” To others, it is understandably an affront. Indeed some might view “can I buy you a drink?” as assuming too much.

Some women who have suffered IRL sexual assault may view on-line harassment as essentially less severe. But others might see it as a continuum of behavior, the dick pic being part of the rape culture that contributed to their trauma. Women who have been fortunate enough to have never suffered an assault may have other views; aligning with either of the above.

It is the same with non-con fiction - something I have debated [I hope cordially] with women on this thread before. Some women view this as either harmless fantasy or even therapy. Others view it as part of the rape culture problem. It’s not wrong to hold either view, it’s just a view [absent some proper study].

Please note above that if my own opinions are leaking through, that’s subconscious. I’m just trying to say people think different things.

I hope we can all agree that if a sexually motivated approach upsets, disgusts, or scares a woman, that is bad. I hope we can all agree that some men behave badly, but also that there could be a range of motivations and a range of culpabilities. I think intent is important.

Finally, I hope we can agree that blaming women for men’s actions is reprehensible. It’s short skirt syndrome. Decent people don’t that.

To once more clarify my position. I am not suggesting that upsetting and inappropriate behavior is OK. I am just saying that it happens. And that what constitutes upsetting and inppropriate behavior is not defined by the ISO, but rather based on the individual woman’s response. Of course what she thinks should be respected. Same as any human.

Em

 

[SimonDoom]

TL; dr - Just because it's expected, doesn't mean it has to be accepted.



I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding in this. It's not the fact that men are reaching out that is the problem, it's how they do it and how they respond to rejection that is the problem.

I think this hits the nail on the head.

I don't personally use Literotica as a place to "virtually hook up" with someone. If I want to do that, I'll go to another online place. I prefer to compartmentalize and use this place just for stories and communicating with others as authors. But there's nothing wrong about wanting to use this place for more. It's obviously been set up to enable that if that's what people want. As you say, it's all a matter of how you do it. The keys are politeness and permission. "Don't be a dick," as an operating principle, goes a long way toward eliminating unpleasantness. Ask yourself, "Am I being a dick?" before you hit the "send" key, and you'll probably avoid getting yourself in trouble.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

That's a childish answer from someone who claims to want an intellectual response.

You claim we "sent children out with the expectation to behave, but not the tools".
Those taboos were the tools. We taught people that there were things you didn't do in polite society, they were taboo, and sent them out with that.
What's your basis for the idea that we need to talk about why showing your dick to complete strangers is taboo? How does having a conversation about it ensure better behavior than simply saying "don't do that idiot".
One can make a compelling case that people were better behaved BEFORE we started tearing down all those taboos.

No it is not. It is simply a parallel example to show the absurdity of your response to my question.

So now your assertion is that we should tell people what to and not to do and never explain any of the whys. This is to give unexplained orders and expect them to be followed without question. This is very backwards thinking. This is not education, this is how brainwashing works. It's also disrespectful of others' thoughts views and opinions, which causes resentment. It's also how places like China operate. They do this because they are a bully. Bullies strongarm others into their way of doing and thinking because they know that others won't accept what they want, usually because the bully doesn't have the truth on their side, only an agenda that works for them and against others. History has proven this approach as foolish over and over again.

If you want to empower people, enlighten them. Tell them why. Knowledge is power.

 

[Bramblethorn]

So, it's a huge widespread problem and you manage to find two cases, one almost 10 years old and another almost 30 years old.

Aside from the Literotica examples, I posted three cases, not two: the LA Times article, the Sticky Fingers interview, and the "almost 30 years old" Nabozny v. Podlesny.

It's not a particularly easy term to search on in this context, because it's become the standard way to summarise that particular mindset, so there are a lot of extraneous uses to pick through, and I have things to do with my time besides operating a search engine for people not prepared to make the effort. But if you'd like me to go look for more, I'm happy to discuss my consulting rates.

Then when you couldn't find a bunch of cases, you resorted to quoting works of fiction.
If we get to quote Literotica you could probably make a case that incest was super common.

"Works of fiction?"

You seem to have misunderstood what part of Literotica those posts come from. They're all from the forum side, not the story side.

The whole argument rests on the idea that boys are somehow excused, or not "held accountable", yet research plainly shows boys are disciplined at a MUCH higher rate than girls.
Here is just one example.
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/crdc-discipline-snapshot.pdf

That's the case at every level, boys get disciplined at a higher rate in school, they are incarcerated at a higher rate as adults.

According to that report, boys account for 51% of enrolment but 67% of in-school suspensions, about 70% of out-of-school suspensions, and 74% of expulsions. So, sure, they're being disciplined for misbehaviour more often.

But that's not directly relevant to this discussion, because we were talking about how often they get away with misbehaviour (for various definitions of "misbehaviour") and the report doesn't tell us anything about how often that happens.

If boys' behaviour was identical to that of girls, we'd expect them to account for 51% of the misbehaviour in the school system, and in a fair system they'd be catching 51% of the suspensions/expulsions. In that scenario, those rates of 67%-74% would suggest that boys were getting much tougher treatment than girls.

But is it reasonable to suppose that boys misbehave at the same rate as girls? I doubt you'd find a lot of takers for that assumption.

I'm not aware of any good stats for male vs. female misbehaviour at schools. But for adult violent crime, perpetrators generally skew about 80% male, according to FBI data. For murder, where the data tends to be better quality, it's more like 90% for cases where the perp's gender is known.

If the rates are similar in schools, then the numbers from your report would actually indicate that boys are being treated more leniently than girls.

Of course, they might not be. But if you have some reason for thinking the ratio is much more even in schools than it is in adulthood, it's on you to provide some evidence for that.

Where is this supposed "lack of accountability"?

Ask Brock Turner.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

No it is not. It is simply a parallel example to show the absurdity of your response to my question.

So now your assertion is that we should tell people what to and not to do and never explain any of the whys. This is to give unexplained orders and expect them to be followed without question. This is very backwards thinking. This is not education, this is how brainwashing works. It's also disrespectful of others' thoughts views and opinions, which causes resentment. It's also how places like China operate. They do this because they are a bully. Bullies strongarm others into their way of doing and thinking because they know that others won't accept what they want, usually because the bully doesn't have the truth on their side, only an agenda that works for them and against others. History has proven this approach as foolish over and over again.

If you want to empower people, enlighten them. Tell them why. Knowledge is power.

Let's not put words in other people's mouths, and stop with the hyperbole and trying to cast aspersions about bullies and dictators. If you want to have an intellectual conversation then do so. Those cheap theatrics don't help.


That aside, why has all this breaking of taboos and "enlightenment" led to worse behavior?
You claim history has "proven" over and over that the approach doesn't work, but it demonstrably does.
The taboo against incest is deeply ingrained in people, and it doesn't require an explanation of the genetic consequences of inbreeding.
History has shown the taboo works, regardless of what you'd like to think.
Why shouldn't men expose themselves to women every chance they get, why is that taboo in our culture? Make a purely logical, intellectual argument for why they shouldn't.

 

[Bramblethorn]

One can make a compelling case that people were better behaved BEFORE we started tearing down all those taboos.

One could, perhaps, but one hasn't.