"It appears, author, you’ve never been in an incestuous relationship yourself…"

[Lucian_Devine]

Going back to the whole "imagination and skill" of a writer... I really whole-heartedly believe in it. I once had someone express to me that they believed someone needs to have experience in sex in order to write sexual scenes, but I disagree with that assumption. I think with enough careful research (lots of reading material especially), thought, and constructive feedback, a person can write just about anything. Personally, I enjoy writing erotic scenes, but I've had very little sexual experience myself (being aro/ace essentially). I'm not entirely sure I'm all that good at them (yet), but I feel like more writing and reading can only help me get better at it.

I am 100% against only posting about what you've done. A lot of my earliest threads were started when I was still a virgin.

I am 100% with you when it comes to research. The common thing people say is, or in my mind should be, "Write what you know". If you are here writing about any sort of kink, regardless of what kind, just make sure you know what you are talking about if you want the thread to have any sort of realism.

If a thread isn't taking itself too literally though, with wacky fantasy type stuff, then you can go a bit farther down the crazy train.

When it comes to threads though, the most important thing is always communication. You and your partner need to be on the same page in regards to what you want the thread to be. You can still throw in curve balls, but sudden changes or inclusions, especially if they are a common hard limit, can really put off your partner and kill a thread outright.

TLDR: Communication is important, and write what you know.

 

[CyranoJ]

Yes, maybe I’m closed minded, but I think the bad surely outweighs the good when it comes to REAL incest. We kind of cherry-pick the 'pretty bits' and leave the very-very ugly ones out of the stories.

IRL incest is a form of sexual violence. It is virtually never anything other than a violation. There's a reason why victim recovery organizations like RAINN categorize it as such.

The Incest/Taboo community on Lit is often pretty disturbing, b/c a large number of them have been allowed to convince themselves that this is not so and IRL incest is completely okay and untouched by issues of consent. This is actually just as creepy as people who write or consume noncon fiction without understanding the boundary (and the necessity of that boundary) between fantasy and reality. I often shy away from the I/T category b/c of the comments that show up on stories saying shit like, "Yeah, I remember doing something like this to my sister," and it just fucks me up.

That's where people who expect you to show actual experience of raping one's siblings are coming from. And my response to that would basically be, "fuck them." You are writing fantasy removed from the actuality of incest for a good reason. The currently-popular porn variant of incest is almost always sanitized for equally "good" reasons. There's a whole other (complicated) convo to be had about whether sanitized versions of the fantasy may fuel certain attitudes, just as there is with noncon, but there's most certainly a particular and understandable reason why it happens.

Have you been in or spoken to someone who was involved in such a relationship that then imprinted on your stories? Do you ever try to add a bit of 'realism' to your I/T stories by relying on non-fiction regarding the subject?

I have known incest survivors. Some of them developed a pattern of high-risk sexual behavior that was directly related to their trauma: perhaps a way (at least, so it seemed to me) of asserting some kind of agency over that betrayal. And yes, a character in one of my stories is informed by what I learned from those experiences.

 

[windar]

Write what you know is pretty universally agreed to be among the worst advice ever given to aspiring writers. Here is what 31 well-known authors, including a few Nobel Laureates say:

https://lithub.com/should-you-write-what-you-know-31-authors-weigh-in/

 

[TadOverdon]

Really, Nathan Englander's contribution sums up the truth that is the kernel of that advice.

Nathan Englander: Write What You Know (Emotionally)

“I think the most famous piece of writing advice that there is is “write what you know,” and I think it’s—honestly, I think it’s the best piece of advice there is, but I think it’s the most misunderstood, most mis-taught, most misinterpreted piece of advice that there is. It’s so simple and so obvious. It used to terrify me, this idea of “write what you know.”. . . [But] what it is is empathic advice; it’s advice about feeling. . . Why do we love those books [we love], why do they change us, why do they touch our hearts, why do they hold so much meaning? Because they are truer than truth; because there is a great knowing within them, and I think what’s behind “write what you know” is emotion. Like, have you known happiness? Have you ever been truly sad? Have you ever longed for something? And that’s the point, if you’ve longed for an Atari 2600, as I did when I was twelve, all I wanted was that game console, if you have felt that deep longing, that can also be a deep longing for a lost love or for liberation of your country, or to reach Mars. That’s the idea: if you’ve known longing, then you can write longing. And that’s the knowing behind “write what you know.””

Nothing more need be said about it (not that some of the other entries aren't also good).

 

[windar]

Really, Nathan Englander's contribution sums up the truth that is the kernel of that advice.



Nothing more need be said about it (not that some of the other entries aren't also good).

Ursula le Guin's was pretty good, also- "Write what you know, but remember you may know dragons."

 

[lovecraft68]

Juist wondering....my wife enjoys taboo-but only brother/sister, and we role play as siblings from time to time.

So, does that qualify as an incestuous relationship?

 

[TadOverdon]

Somehow I think there's a difference between fantasizing about dragons or fantasizing about incest.

And the difference is...?

Like, George Railroad Martin got rich doing both at the same time. LOL

 

[lovecraft68]

I guess you could also figure this out for yourself, but in case you don't: For some people, incest is the real deal.

For some people serial killers and violent crime is real, should it not be fictionalized?

99% of the incest stories you'll find here or on the venues that allow it for sale are 18+, fully consensual, and pure absurd sexy fantasy. They're not based on what we know is the not so sexy reality of most incest.

Now I'm going to ask you, what about non consent? Let's see some self righteous little dig on a category that glorifies rape.

As I just stated, the incest stories here are very unlike incest reality, and if you want to be roasted in incest put in some non consent or make it ugly and the readers will make you pay, because they know what real life is, and its not what they're looking for.

But non consent? That is rape stories, every rape scenario in real life is portrayed there and as the same crime. A woman writing or reading it is from the POV of a fantasy they know they don't want to be reality and as the victim.

The men who write it are doing it from the POV of the rapist, meaning they want to be the one inflicting it, again it can just be fantasy, but that's a more dangerous line...there is rape and rapist fantasy and one is far worse than the other.

Yes, lit has that absurd they have to enjoy it rule, and first off, they're full it, there's countless pure rape stories on here. But more than that, that shit rule is more damaging, it perpetuates the asshole thought no means yes, and they're all begging for it.

So, let's ask about dragons vs Non consent. What have we learned class? Incest in fictional erotica is about fun fantasy, rape porn is pure rape porn and the same crime and that's the turn on to men, women being subjugated and hurt and forced to have sex....as it should be in their minds.

You're another fool running to the women's empowerment contest with no damn clue or care about that cause. Got plenty to say about an incest category, but stay far clear from non consent.

BTW, little fact for you. When someone is arrested for molesting a family member, the charges are never 'incest' the charges are sexual assault, sexual abuse and rape....in other words, let's get back to non consent.

And in direct reply to your smug remark? There are far more women in this world-and this site-for whom rape is part of real life than there is for incest.

Think on that, then ask why you have fuck all to say about the non con category

Stick to being a suck up, and keep your snark to yourself, you're not anywhere near as equipped as you think you are to deal it out.

 

[jehoram]

I'm not sure what drives me to seek out these stories. I'm not sure if it's unhealthy (it doesn't seem like an obsession at least - I think I really only read a few times a month) or if it's my brain's way of trying to desensitize myself to it or if it's some means of exerting control (since I click on the stories) or if I'm still trying to understand / process what happened or if it's some other weird coping mechanism or if it's none of the above and it really simply just is... a thing.

Sorry about your experience and how it maimed you. As for the motive for seeking out those stories, my money would be on your brain's way of trying to get a handle on it and integrate it into your psyche. But I assume you've talked to professionals about this.

I agree that there is usually a huge power imbalance with any incest involving children, and that it's really rape for that reason, whether it's consensual or not. As for incest among adults, I've written about it as a positive thing, but I've also written about a lot of other things I wouldn't like to experience in real life. And there have been things that have actually happened to me that I would never write about, because I don't want to revisit it.

 

[SimonDoom]

I guess you could also figure this out for yourself, but in case you can't: For some people, incest is real.

This is true, but it doesn't really explain how, for the author's purposes, they are any different. Literotica incest often isn't that much different from dragons, in the sense of being unrealistic fantasy. Its boundaries are limited by the author's imagination, not by what happens in the real world.

 

[Lucian_Devine]

Write what you know is pretty universally agreed to be among the worst advice ever given to aspiring writers. Here is what 31 well-known authors, including a few Nobel Laureates say:

https://lithub.com/should-you-write-what-you-know-31-authors-weigh-in/

Are you misunderstanding this, or am I misreading your post? When people say "write what you know" they don't mean ONLY your life experiences. They mean to write about stuff that interests you or stuff that you have done research on. If you write about something that you know almost nothing about, it's just going to be a mess.

I mentioned before that I wrote sexual stories while I was a virgin. The stories I wrote weren't about virgins though. They were about fantasy things that I knew and knew a fair bit about, and did research on so that I could write intelligently about.

 

[windar]

Are you misunderstanding this, or am I misreading your post? When people say "write what you know" they don't mean ONLY your life experiences. They mean to write about stuff that interests you or stuff that you have done research on. If you write about something that you know almost nothing about, it's just going to be a mess.

I mentioned before that I wrote sexual stories while I was a virgin. The stories I wrote weren't about virgins though. They were about fantasy things that I knew and knew a fair bit about, and did research on so that I could write intelligently about.

Yes, write about things that interest you, or as some put it, "Write about what you would like to know about".

But let me give you as an example the person believed to be the best-selling author of all time, Agatha Christie. OK, if you believe God wrote the Bible then maybe she's #2. Obviously, she never killed anyone. Nor had she ever been a police officer or a detective or ever been involved in solving a real life murder. She read Conan Doyle and Wilkie Collins and after her first novel, based on her experiences living in Cairo for a time, failed to find a publisher, she decided to try a detective novel.
She wrote "The Mysterious Affair at Styles" featuring Hercule Poirot and then went on to write several dozen more, many of which were smash hits, adapted into plays and movies.

 

[TadOverdon]

I guess you could also figure this out for yourself, but in case you can't: For some people, incest is real.

EDIT: Never mind, it's not worth the headache.

This week, I fantasized about an attempted murder. Actually, I've been fantasizing about it and making notes for a few months. I'd been looking forward to writing that chapter of this novel for a while, and I feel really good the way it's going so far.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

Well technically I have had incest, but I purposefully forget it happened, and every once in a while, accidentally remember, like now. Which kinda screwed up my initial response, since I thought about it, too hard. I have not had sex with ghost, demons, or a faery, or been influenced by some holiday spirit in to having sex, but I wrote it, and I don't think any reader has either. I haven't had sex with comic book or cartoon either, but I wrote those too.

Write what you know, doesn't mean write what you've personally experienced.

 

[SimonDoom]

The Incest/Taboo community on Lit is often pretty disturbing, b/c a large number of them have been allowed to convince themselves that this is not so and IRL incest is completely okay and untouched by issues of consent. This is actually just as creepy as people who write or consume noncon fiction without understanding the boundary (and the necessity of that boundary) between fantasy and reality. I often shy away from the I/T category b/c of the comments that show up on stories saying shit like, "Yeah, I remember doing something like this to my sister," and it just fucks me up.

.

This may be your experience, but it is not mine. I've written about 20 incest stories over the last 4 1/2 years, and I've received a lot of different kinds of feedback. The overwhelming majority of incest readers that provide comments appear to appreciate that this is fantasy. There have been a few creepy and weird comments, and one in particular that disturbed me, but they are a small minority. I've received comments from people that hated the stories, but never received comments from anyone that expressed that they were triggered or truly disturbed by what I wrote, and for that matter I cannot recall having read any comments of that sort to any incest story I've read. I also have never received a comment that suggested to me that the person commenting might do something bad in response to a story. Obviously, people who comment may not be wholly representative of those who read, but I haven't seen much evidence of what you are suggesting about the Literotica I/T community. It seems, on the whole, pretty harmless to me.

 

[oggbashan]

Write what you know?

If you don't know? Find out and then you will know.

Many famous novelists do a large amount of research before they write. Georgette Heyer in her Regency novels did. If one of her characters says something that is slang, it will be Regency Slang for example if they talk about prizefighting. One reason she disliked her earliest novels was that she felt that there were anachronisms that she might not have spotted because she wrote BEFORE doing her research.

Her books about the Napoleonic wars are so accurate about the battles and the soldiers' experience of them that they have been recommended as background reading for officer cadets at Sandhurst.

But she didn't 'know' when she thought of those books. When she had finished them - she DID know because she had found out.

So modify 'Write what you know' to 'Write what you know and if you don't know - do the research until you DO know'.

Edited for PS:

Two examples from my recent stories:

In Winchester Geese one person's comment asked whether the geese would have been speaking Middle English in 1410. I had checked before I wrote that. Middle English, according to Wikipedia and Oxford University didn't die out until 1500. It had started to decline from the middle of the 15th Century with the advent of printing. So in 1410, Middle English was right.

The other? In Unwelcome Inheritance, the main character said OK in 1915. It had started in the US in the 19th Century, but between 1890 and 1914 they had been considerable contact between UK high Society and the US's monied classes. In the circles in which the main character lived, the use of OK in the UK was feasible, if not in more general use until after the arrival of the Dougfhboys in 1917.

For both - I had done the research so I knew..

 

[SimonDoom]

I guess you're right. As long as the victim enjoys it, it's okay. Just like some other categories.

No, that's not it at all. It is more accurate to say that in Literotica incest -- nearly all of the Literotica incest that I've written and read, anyway --there is no victim. To insist otherwise is to be unreasonable and argumentative and to insist that another person's fantasy is bound by your personal agenda in the real world. You've said nothing to explain why that should be so.

 

[46n2]

It's something I have talked to a therapist about but not in as much detail as I'm about to describe here due to shame, embarrassment, and being worried about what she would think of me (I know non-judgement is what being a therapist is all about - but the thought of putting all of this out there in the "real world" terrifies me far too much).

My biological dad raped me.

Dude. Anvil drop.

I really like the way you prefaced all that, enough to substantiate your honesty and pain. I also very much enjoy the anonymity that this place allows and yeah - advantage that.

All ears from there…

>For some reason, I find stories involving father/daughter - particularly stories where the father is the aggressor, the daughter is innocent, there might even be some dubcon or noncon involved - very arousing. Conversely, stories where the daughter is the seducer are much less arousing and tend to make me angry.

I can somewhat easily surmise it’s because - even though it isn’t you nor even male to male - the “innocence” gathered from the first scenario can be rewarding and therefore afford you some sense of control (likely rewarding in itself because it ISn’t male to male). While the other is a cost and nothing but; indicating your own intentions or preference somehow, which would be entirely false.

You see that, right?


-Brutal honesty you gave us there. And it reminds me of what Literitica once was. Or at least how people had once upon a time advantaged it (quietly and free from public burden).

The post I made above yours would not be possible without Literotica. I would never have even addressed those thoughts within myself if I hadn’t happened upon an incest story accidentally (my situation clearly not nearly as upsetting as yours).

MOST people, I would imagine, have imprints from sexual experience (designed, encountered, or otherwise) that they simply cannot solve.

And yes, I do believe that either writing it or reading it can help resolve those issues. To some degree.


-Well done, bro. Good courage right there.

 

[46n2]

IRL incest is a form of sexual violence. It is virtually never anything other than a violation. There's a reason why victim recovery organizations like RAINN categorize it as such.

The Incest/Taboo community on Lit is often pretty disturbing, b/c a large number of them have been allowed to convince themselves that this is not so and IRL incest is completely okay and untouched by issues of consent. This is actually just as creepy as people who write or consume noncon fiction without understanding the boundary (and the necessity of that boundary) between fantasy and reality... ETC

Well said. In its entirety (I only briefed it here for the sake of an ongoing read).

I think I might disagree on one point.

And it's a tricky one.

Maybe if, society would never frown upon this sort of thing. Let's say I had a sister. And she showed me how a cock gets sucked. Is that a bad thing? Assuming she showed me cuz I made it clear I wanted her to. Then perhaps we fuck a lot. We use protection. We're not interested in sister babies or whatnot.

How 'bout my Mom likes to show me with even greater understanding than my sister does? Would I complain?

Now. We stop there, right? The obvious answer is, "Why ever leave the fucking cave then?" And that's a true and real thing. I came into some money recently and now I'm not worried about money so I'm not all that motivated about some other things that used to be necessary. That's not on the "solve" list anymore so. And that's not healthy. A good LONG solve list is healthy.

If Mom, for instance, solves it all before I've even begun - then what else is there?

Yup.

However. How much fucked up shit would it have solved if I HADn't been thrown out to the wolves and had my myriad of trust completely corrupted by random cunts with other ideas about fidelity than I might more organically have?

Ya know?

Maybe I'd be less sat on my ass if those issues hadn't fried all the rest of my attempts to ascend.

So on that point I might question us some.

If a family were more... enduringly assertive in that regard, sexual awakenings and the like - where would we be?

It's a question to consider.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[46n2]

For some people serial killers and violent crime is real, should it not be fictionalized?

Hahaha ha ha... I'm down for a good read here! GO, brother!!

99% of the incest stories you'll find here or on the venues that allow it for sale are 18+, fully consensual, and pure absurd sexy fantasy. They're not based on what we know is the not so sexy reality of most incest.

Now I'm going to ask you, what about non consent? Let's see some self righteous little dig on a category that glorifies rape.

-So, let's ask about dragons vs Non consent. What have we learned class? Incest in fictional erotica is about fun fantasy, rape porn is pure rape porn and the same crime and that's the turn on to men, women being subjugated and hurt and forced to have sex....as it should be in their minds.

When the internet was NEW enough. One of the very first times I got on a "chat" channel. I ended up being some chick's father and "please god" endlessly "RAPING" her. Those were her words. Not mine.

And the chat channel was AOL. We were talking about some bombings going on in Israel. I'm astute enough that she - for whatever reason - dismissed all the other words scrolling by at rapid intervals and clued in on me. Then it got sexual. She was turned on. Within 45 minutes or so she was privately IMing me to "RAPE" her like her daddy should. And I'm like, 'What the fuck is this? The Internet is CRAZY!!'

Trust me, this shit was all new to me. So I gave her my number (dumb enough at that time) and she called me. yup, she's a girl. She was already fingering herself and barking in my ear: "Rape me, Daddy. PLEASE!!"

She fucked herself repeatedly while I mostly just said, "yeah".

So - bro - I'm gonna have to differ with you on your point.

There is ANYthing coming from anywhere.

I have NO idea why this chick went from crying about bombings in Israel to "RAPE me, Daddy" with a stranger on the phone. But I can promise you I had not led it there. She just wanted someone to listen to her soundly do herself. So I gave her what I could.

Here's my ear.

End of story.

-I don't mean to be argumentative and your points were particularly sound and well presented. But. Categorically calling ANYthing anything - is a rather bad idea.

Don't cheat women out of their Rape Fantasies and call it a Man's Only arena instead, okay?

They won't enjoy that none.


-Having said that. Obviously dipshits need to understand the difference between fantasy and kicking in your neighbor's door cuz you think you understand her somehow. Don't be a jackass.

 

[jehoram]

Write what you know?

If you don't know? Find out and then you will know.

Many famous novelists do a large amount of research before they write. Georgette Heyer in her Regency novels did. If one of her characters says something that is slang, it will be Regency Slang for example if they talk about prizefighting. One reason she disliked her earliest novels was that she felt that there were anachronisms that she might not have spotted because she wrote BEFORE doing her research.


So modify 'Write what you know' to 'Write what you know and if you don't know - do the research until you DO know'.

There was an American named Zane Grey who wrote dozens of books set in the American West. If he wrote about a cowboy who arrived at a certain spring or well, you can be sure that that well or spring existed at the time of the story, even if it had since dried up. It's possible to visit just about every one of the places he mentioned in his books.

 

[windar]

There was an American named Zane Grey who wrote dozens of books set in the American West. If he wrote about a cowboy who arrived at a certain spring or well, you can be sure that that well or spring existed at the time of the story, even if it had since dried up. It's possible to visit just about every one of the places he mentioned in his books.

We're getting away from the original question. Sure you can and should research facts-where a spring is, which Starbucks is nearest West 37th St and 8th Avenue. But how do you research how one would feel in an incestuous relationship?

You can read psychology journals, read accounts of people who were in them, but they will be all over the map because the relationships and the people in them vary greatly. There is no single way the people involved all feel. At the end of the day if you decide to write a story about incest you're going to have to IMAGINE how you might feel in such a situation. Because it's your story, not someone else's. They are certainly free to write their own.

 

[Lucian_Devine]

Exactly this. Everyone is here for their own reason, and their interests are their own. It doesn't matter what it is, so long as it abides by Lit rules and you can find a partner to write with you, you can have a thread about it. If you can't find a partner, you could still write a solo story about it.

When people think up these stories, I doubt they are truly trying to think of how somebody might actually react to such a situation, namely because most of said situations don't start with both parties over the age of 18. Two adults are highly unlikely to just decide to enter into a relationship like this when they've seen the other person grow up. That's why a lot of them involve somebody having been gone for X amount of time. It lets both parties grow up without seeing each other as relatives. They still know that they are related, but it's easier to justify it or give in to the bodies urges when you see somebody for the first time after all those years, nothing like you remember, etc.

This is often the line that people use to separate the thread from reality.

 

[CyranoJ]

There have been a few creepy and weird comments, and one in particular that disturbed me, but they are a small minority.

I certainly don't mean to indict the majority of readers or writers in the category. I've just noticed that there are a lot more creepers and a lot less pushback than I'd be comfortable with for any dark kink category, including the ones I write in. That admittedly includes more than a few interactions in the forums.

If Mom, for instance, solves it all before I've even begun - then what else is there?

Mom "solving" it for you is essentially noncon. There's no possible way for a mother's child to frame "consent" in that framework. Siblings can't navigate those waters without power dynamics and the weaponization of filial relations coming into frame, either.

Incest/Taboo simply is a subcategory of noncon fiction, point blank. (I see that lovecraft68 is up to his usual bullshit in trying to pretend they're different. At the fundamentals, they just aren't.)

I am sorry to hear about your being thrown out to the wolves, though. It's not like that's desirable, either.

 

[jehoram]

We're getting away from the original question. Sure you can and should research facts-where a spring is, which Starbucks is nearest West 37th St and 8th Avenue. But how do you research how one would feel in an incestuous relationship?

You can read psychology journals, read accounts of people who were in them, but they will be all over the map because the relationships and the people in them vary greatly. There is no single way the people involved all feel. At the end of the day if you decide to write a story about incest you're going to have to IMAGINE how you might feel in such a situation. Because it's your story, not someone else's. They are certainly free to write their own.

Good point. I would have to add, though, that the psychology journals will probably only tell of relationships that caused psychological damage. You won't read about the people whose incestual relationships were positive and life-fulfilling. Just how many of those really exist is something that we'll never know.

But you're right that imagination is the key. If you write about a murderer, you don't have kill somebody to imagine what it might feel like to do that. If your imagination is vivid, the story might work. The only problem is that you might imagine something so unrealistic that readers won't buy into it. If I wrote a story about how a daughter got thunderstruck about seeing her dad's ten-inch dick and just had to have it inside her right away, it would suck, because I don't have the chops to pull it off.

Consider how many movies gleefully ignore the laws of physics and have their heroes thrown thirty feet into a wall, dust themselves off, and get back into the fray, and you can see that realism isn't the screenwriter's concern. They create a universe where things like that can happen every day without serious consequences. So it is, I think, with incest stories.