"It appears, author, you’ve never been in an incestuous relationship yourself…"

[8letters]

Mom "solving" it for you is essentially noncon. There's no possible way for a mother's child to frame "consent" in that framework.

Most real life incest is a male using the trust of a family member to have sex with them, typically when they are too young to handle a sexual relationship. In these relations, there's typically a power dynamic where the young person is dependent on the older male. These are bad, bad relationships that do tremendous damage to the young person. But it's not that it's a family member that makes these type of relationships so bad, it's the situation. Mom's new boyfriend forcing her kid to have sex with him is just as damaging.

If you want to talk about how most real-life incest is so awful, there's my agreement with you.

Siblings can't navigate those waters without power dynamics and the weaponization of filial relations coming into frame, either.

Incest/Taboo simply is a subcategory of noncon fiction, point blank. (I see that lovecraft68 is up to his usual bullshit in trying to pretend they're different. At the fundamentals, they just aren't.)

This is bullshit. First cousins get married all the time. First cousin stories are published to I/T (I have one). Are you saying that all first-cousin marriages are noncon?

I/T regularly has stories that feature sex with in-laws. Are you saying all sex with in-laws in real life is noncon?

Are you saying that all relations where there is a power dynamic are noncon? Teacher-student relationships can be very damaging, but some become wonderful relationships. One of the classmates in high school married one of our teachers. They were still happily married at the last high school reunion I attended. One of my classmates in college announced her engagement to one of our professors before she graduated (he was much older). Are you saying both of those are noncon relationships? Bill Gates married one of his employees. Was that a noncon relationship? If someone dates their boss, is that a noncon relationship?

Noncon to me is when someone doesn't consent or is unable to give their consent. Whether the two people are related is besides the point.

 

[CyranoJ]

This is bullshit.

By way of clarification, the point wouldn't apply to examples in I/T that don't deal with sex between first-degree relatives.

Beyond that, I remember trying to explain this to you once before, and to put it as politely as I can, the results did not seem worth the effort. So I'll leave it there.

 

[SimonDoom]

We're getting away from the original question. Sure you can and should research facts-where a spring is, which Starbucks is nearest West 37th St and 8th Avenue. But how do you research how one would feel in an incestuous relationship?

You can read psychology journals, read accounts of people who were in them, but they will be all over the map because the relationships and the people in them vary greatly. There is no single way the people involved all feel. At the end of the day if you decide to write a story about incest you're going to have to IMAGINE how you might feel in such a situation. Because it's your story, not someone else's. They are certainly free to write their own.

I agree, strongly.

Stories here, almost by definition, are not limited by normal psychology. A great deal of what we write here is, intentionally, deviant. Human psychology and behavior are almost infinite in their variety and weirdness. If you can imagine a really weird, outlier behavior, there's probably somebody out there in the real world who lives that behavior. It's more fun and interesting and sexy to write about characters whose behavior is on the edge than to write about characters whose behavior conforms to a statistical average.

My quarrel with Cyrano's statement above is with that word "essentially." In my view, that word has no place in a discussion about erotic stories. Nothing is "essentially" anything, when it comes to erotica. In the universe of Literotica incest stories, the motives and circumstances of the characters vary widely, and saying that all the stories in Incest/Taboo are "essentially" noncon says nothing meaningful about them. It's just a statement of one's own personal ideology. There's a surprising -- and I think unfortunate -- amount of that in this forum.

 

[ElectricBlue]

There's a surprising -- and I think unfortunate -- amount of that in this forum.

And all I saw was the fucking em dashes. They've become eye worms. Please make them go away!

 

[8letters]

I agree, strongly.

Stories here, almost by definition, are not limited by normal psychology. A great deal of what we write here is, intentionally, deviant. Human psychology and behavior are almost infinite in their variety and weirdness. If you can imagine a really weird, outlier behavior, there's probably somebody out there in the real world who lives that behavior. It's more fun and interesting and sexy to write about characters whose behavior is on the edge than to write about characters whose behavior conforms to a statistical average.

My quarrel with Cyrano's statement above is with that word "essentially." In my view, that word has no place in a discussion about erotic stories. Nothing is "essentially" anything, when it comes to erotica. In the universe of Literotica incest stories, the motives and circumstances of the characters vary widely, and saying that all the stories in Incest/Taboo are "essentially" noncon says nothing meaningful about them. It's just a statement of one's own personal ideology. There's a surprising -- and I think unfortunate -- amount of that in this forum.

What we write here are (for the most part) fantasies. People are attracted to the unusual in fantasies. The "Jurassic World" movies have terrible stories, but incredible box offices because people loved watching a fantasy about dinosaurs being alive in our present time. Romances are in my experience almost always about the girl marrying someone who is rich and powerful, even though those type of marriages almost never happen. In ancient times, people told stories about gods instead of their neighbors.

I think the type of fantasy that most appeals to us are those that are grounded in the real world with the exception of some amazing element. The Harry Potter books are about a kid getting his secondary education in England, except he's at a school for wizards and witches. "Jurassic World" is about a park that's a lot like Sea World, except it has dinosaurs.

So when I write incest stories, they are about normal people who have a normal romance, with the fantastical element that they are blood relatives. In all the comments and PM's that I've gotten, everyone has understood that this is just a fantasy. Are there any consensual brother-sister relationships out there? Doesn't matter. What matters is that I can create an appealing fantasy about one that feels very real. Was "50 Shades" realistic about dating a billionaire? Doesn't matter. Same thing.

 

[SamScribble]

I don’t think that you can ever really generalise about what is fact and what is fiction.

Many years ago, my brother-in-law (who was also a writer) and I had a few drinks with the editor of a literary magazine.

At one stage during the evening, the editor told us about the reader reactions to the magazine’s latest edition. Among other things, the editor had received more than 30 letters (it was back in pre-email days) about the implausibility of the events in a certain short story.

‘The thing is,’ the editor told us, ‘the story is not even fiction. Not really. [The author] has just written an account of his own domestic experience. I’m just hoping that his wife never gets to read it.’

 

[oggbashan]

The easiest way to research Incest for Literotica is to read high rated stories in that category. Almost all of it is fantasy, unreal, but it appeals to some readers. Find what has worked and then write your own.

 

[46n2]

At the end of the day if you decide to write a story about incest you're going to have to IMAGINE how you might feel in such a situation. Because it's your story, not someone else's. They are certainly free to write their own.

Actually, I don't imagine myself at all.

It's not MY fantasy.

I'm writing to discover.

I've never written anything to "discover what I might feel". Maybe I do that with poetry, other like-minded practices that are there to be internal. With Erotica? I write from what I initially might not understand at all. In an effort to BETTER understand it.

Back when I began doing it (under another moniker) I found that out rather quickly. My comfort zone was, "What do I already NOT know?" And by this point it's probably matured into, "What can I not ever solve?"

I'm not imagining ME at all. It's someone else. It's many other else's. And none of them are "excuses" either. All of them become heard despite my own resistance to exclude them. I might at this point do so more selfishly, where I'm stuck on certain scenarios that now challenge me. Certain things I recognize as now also broken within myself and not just beyond. But it's never ME that's in it.

Duh.

Are you writing for "you"?

Then write an entry in a diary instead. Yuck.

 

[46n2]

Mom "solving" it for you is essentially noncon. There's no possible way for a mother's child to frame "consent" in that framework. Siblings can't navigate those waters without power dynamics and the weaponization of filial relations coming into frame, either.

Hmm.

It's a fair point.

Maybe that's true.

I had a situation that was but I am not going to blanket concept an idea against it completely. I've read some other fiction where I'm like, "Now that's really hard to argue with." Though, as with any story (or opinion for that matter), it's only taken from a slice of time so how can anyone know more globally or with outright certainty?

It's probably most healthy that we debate it and not entrench within an expectation either way. There are variables. Though "shame" does not tend to be productive within any of them ever.

 

[windar]

Actually, I don't imagine myself at all.

It's not MY fantasy.

I'm writing to discover.

I've never written anything to "discover what I might feel". Maybe I do that with poetry, other like-minded practices that are there to be internal. With Erotica? I write from what I initially might not understand at all. In an effort to BETTER understand it.

Back when I began doing it (under another moniker) I found that out rather quickly. My comfort zone was, "What do I already NOT know?" And by this point it's probably matured into, "What can I not ever solve?"

I'm not imagining ME at all. It's someone else. It's many other else's. And none of them are "excuses" either. All of them become heard despite my own resistance to exclude them. I might at this point do so more selfishly, where I'm stuck on certain scenarios that now challenge me. Certain things I recognize as now also broken within myself and not just beyond. But it's never ME that's in it.

Duh.

Are you writing for "you"?

Then write an entry in a diary instead. Yuck.

I didn't say it was your fantasy, I said it was your STORY. If you don't delve into the characters' feeling and reactions, then you're writing pure mechanics and mechanically sex with a relative is undistinguishable from sex with a stranger.

So, how do you know what a fictional person having an incestuous relationship feels? Only by using YOUR imagination. Unless you're transcribing a real person's recollections, in which case you're writing non-fiction biography, which is fine, but not what we're discussing here, and in that case it's their story, not yours.

 

[46n2]

PS

When Literotica was far more brave than it is now. And when fear of being “shunned” upon had not yet appeared to ALSO be available and damaging/effective within an anonymous setting.

People would admit shit. And we all learned some things.

Including… that people will hurt themselves to an alarming degree of ignorance, when given the chance. And that was rather informative and crippling for me personally. (Hangings, and Lynchings, are still a thing. And they’re a thing because humans appear to enjoy the crippling of those above them. If not the smashing of the one’s below.)

-Interesting side note (pardon me). I’m just now going through Game of Thrones. And “the dwarf” is having a discussion with his (rather dynamic character of a brother, for the record), while trapped within the catacombs, talking about… the beetle. How this slow-minded cousin sort they knew had resort to smashing beetles. And why would that be his only interest? The Dwarf could not know. As that rather fantastic segment of a story plays out - don’t we all think we know? And yet at the end. Tyrion says, “Why do you think he continued to do that? Why?”

He’s absolutely honestly asking. Because Tryion cannot concieve of it. The smashing of another smaller than yourself. What would be the purpose? (What an acting job, btw. Superlative.)

I found that to be a PARTICULARLY effective scene, in all the subtle ways I most appreciate. And absolutely alarming in it’s understanding of basic human tendencies - while also allowing for… hope among us.

Anywayz… that’s not entirely off point here but…

ENVY? Is a very real thing. And it rules a whole lot of people. It will create people away from what they more likely might prefer to be. And the very powerful. Do not like envy. Because, of course, they are envy themsleves. Their entire lives are mostly driven by envy. They cannot stop - because of envy.

And so I wonder… (besides if I can STFU here)… if maybe Envy had written The Bible and the Garden of Eden and the Church of what Cannot be.

Simply because. It could not measure up. Or lived without a mother more capable. Than their own.

And maybe that’s why your mom isn’t supposed to fist your cock when it boinks up out at her so expertly up from the tub, requesting some affirming reassurance that the world ahead will be righteous, eh?


-Sorry. Bit of the bottle on me already ; )

 

[46n2]

I didn't say it was your fantasy, I said it was your STORY.

Yes you did. You said:

You can read psychology journals, read accounts of people who were in them, but they will be all over the map because the relationships and the people in them vary greatly. There is no single way the people involved all feel. At the end of the day if you decide to write a story about incest you're going to have to IMAGINE how you might feel in such a situation. Because it's your story, not someone else's. They are certainly free to write their own.

Imagine how *I* might feel.

Semantics aside, I'm not writing that. I'm trying to discover how someone else might feel.

And why?

Mostly for someone else and not me. Why does a writer write a song? What is Forrest Gump about? Why did Bell invent the telephone? So HE could be heard?

-And I know (not enough, just a little) because I'd previously written enough (or chatted enough on a pillow) that women began to trust me with their thoughts. I'd hear about her first honest cum climbing a tree at 5yrs old. Oops, that bark feels GEWD!! Shit like that. An older woman who likes to fuck the cucumber before she slices it up for the family salad. she takes a thrill in that, "I'm not invisible. Eat me. I can't be ignored." That sort of thing.

Enough private thoughts made through fact that I've felt a responsibility to tell someone else's story.

Not mine.

Someone else's.

-You are correct however that this thread is based in ACTUAL occurrences. So that's my bad and I'll get out now.

Just tickling the noodle a bit.

peace

 

[windar]

Yes you did. You said:

You can read psychology journals, read accounts of people who were in them, but they will be all over the map because the relationships and the people in them vary greatly. There is no single way the people involved all feel. At the end of the day if you decide to write a story about incest you're going to have to IMAGINE how you might feel in such a situation. Because it's your story, not someone else's. They are certainly free to write their own.

Imagine how *I* might feel.

Semantics aside, I'm not writing that. I'm trying to discover how someone else might feel.

And why?

Mostly for someone else and not me. Why does a writer write a song? What is Forrest Gump about? Why did Bell invent the telephone? So HE could be heard?

-And I know (not enough, just a little) because I'd previously written enough (or chatted enough on a pillow) that women began to trust me with their thoughts. I'd hear about her first honest cum climbing a tree at 5yrs old. Oops, that bark feels GEWD!! Shit like that. An older woman who likes to fuck the cucumber before she slices it up for the family salad. she takes a thrill in that, "I'm not invisible. Eat me. I can't be ignored." That sort of thing.

Enough private thoughts made through fact that I've felt a responsibility to tell someone else's story.

Not mine.

Someone else's.

-You are correct however that this thread is based in ACTUAL occurrences. So that's my bad and I'll get out now.

Just tickling the noodle a bit.

peace

You have a RESPONSIBILITY to share someone else's private confessions? Uh, no you don't.

Getting out while you're behind is the wisest thing you've said...

 

[nonverbalcommunication]

I certainly don't mean to indict the majority of readers or writers in the category...

Mom "solving" it for you is essentially noncon. There's no possible way for a mother's child to frame "consent" in that framework. Siblings can't navigate those waters without power dynamics and the weaponization of filial relations coming into frame, either.

With all due respect for your opinions, one cannot move from the general to the specific. I tend to agree with your first point as I read it... It is extraordinarily difficult to see a way in which a parent-child sexual relationship is completely consensual because of the inherent familiar dynamics. And sure, I and others have written stories here about people who essentially had no familiar dynamics finding one another later in life, but that's a different plot line.

I have written more than one story where mature children or in-laws have special relationships. I see it as an arc. Young we depend on the old; old we depend on the young; in the middle if we are fortunate we are equals.

I completely disagree with what I see as your point about siblings. In fact all of the real people whom I know for a fact to have engaged in an incestuous relationship have done so with siblings approximately their own age. I realize that "people whom I know personally" is a very small sample size, but none have expressed any negativity over the experience, which I tend to view as part of a healthy (well better stop here)

By the rules at Literotica, seeing someone naked, thinking about someone being naked, fantasizing about having sex, and watching others have sex are all sexual activities. By this standard probably most citizens of western nations who have siblings have engaged in incest. Without violating the 18 rule, fantasy is not the only way these siblings have... uh, well...

I know people who did it once (or a dozen times) to see what it's like, as well as people who have a standing "date" every Tuesday morning (and have for 35 years). Only one "couple" moved out of town and started over pretending to be married. You never hear about this because it's not spectacular or bloody. Nobody was harmed, to the contrary these are pleasant memories now.

I've never been raped, and am empathetic to those who sadly have been. I was robbed at gunpoint once. I clearly recall that feeling of helplessness decades later. How much worse to be personally violated than to just lose crap... (Of course it wasn't the crap, it was not knowing what would happen-- I think anything is survivable if you just know what is going to happen.) How much worse for that violation to have come from a person who is supposed to be a protector...

Of course protector doesn't have to mean parent or elder sibling, and the news tells us of teachers, clergy, counselors, neighbors, and police who abuse authority or positions of influence. In the west, where the individual human being is the repository of human rights, rape is a crime and should rightfully be punished. Under color of authority or position of influence is an aggravating factor and should rightfully be considered.

Just SGOTI and my opinion is worth what you paid to get it...

 

[jehoram]

Write what you know?

Or, it it's incest, "Write who you know." ("Know" in the biblical sense, I mean.)

 

[46n2]

You have a RESPONSIBILITY to share someone else's private confessions? Uh, no you don't.

Getting out while you're behind is the wisest thing you've said...

It doesn't matter to you that I feel I must? Not with their own name on it but someone else's. They told it to me cuz they want to be heard. You weren't in that fucking discussion. But you're gonna "command" where I am on the 8-ball and tell me what I must or mustn't?

Check yer fuckin ego, mate.

Yer trippin.

-I'll do what I feel worth doing within the arts of imagination. I'll do what I feel compelled to - at no one else's expense. Only my own.

You go on ahead and serve yourself instead, okay?

 

[46n2]

Young we depend on the old; old we depend on the young; in the middle if we are fortunate we are equals.

That is an incredibly astute point and I thank you for sharing it. Particularly efficient and accurate recognition.

How much worse for that violation to have come from a person who is supposed to be a protector....

Aye. And surely that's where the vociferous anger lies. It's why the laws are necessary. Who can know until they truly know? And how easy is it for the "more adult one" in the partnership to assume or believe whatever their intent to be as completely holistic and nothing other than beneficial?

You cannot fuck with an undeveloped mind like that.

It's just not okay.

Plain and simple.

 

[WillsCuriousity]

As someone who peruses incest stories and enjoys chatting with people in that vein what I would say is that it is the closeness of the archetype that makes it exciting. We all have a picture of what the relationship with mom/son, dad/daughter, brother/sister, etc is. There is an instant closeness beyond the taboo.

 

[alohadave]

Yes, maybe I’m closed minded, but I think the bad surely outweighs the good when it comes to REAL incest. We kind of cherry-pick the 'pretty bits' and leave the very-very ugly ones out of the stories.

As much of a turn on the fantasy is, it's really fucking squicky in real life.

 

[PastMaster]

Years ago, I was working a job in a small town in a state I won't name. I needed an electrician so I got a hold of a local phone book. It didn't take me long to realize that there were only two last names in the book for about 3000 people. One of those last names was also the name of the town.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

I got the electrician from somewhere else.

I would have hired the electrician from the town - the extra fingers might have come in useful

 

[lovecraft68]

As much of a turn on the fantasy is, it's really fucking squicky in real life.

Agreed. I mentioned that in the How to I wrote on the category that most of the time in real life its abuse and unhealthy(the VC Andrews incest) and I got a few comments telling me I'm wrong that when I say things in the story like love is love etc...that is true in real life. Maybe in a few cases its true, most of the time its not.

Every kink here can be experienced in real life....except taboo and non con, those need to stay in the land of make believe.

 

[SimonDoom]

Getting judgy and moralistic about other people's erotic fantasies always seems tedious and silly to me.

Being deviant and squicky is part of the point. There's a part in most of us that WANTS to be bad. Part of the appeal of The Godfather, or The Sopranos, or Silence of the Lambs, is rooting for the bad guys. There's a thrill to putting onself in the shoes of someone who gets away with doing something that society disapproves of.

 

[SimonDoom]

Every kink here can be experienced in real life....except taboo and non con, those need to stay in the land of make believe.

Is this necessarily true? I agree with respect to non con, because consent is essential, but is it necessarily true that adult consensual incest must be bad or damaging to the participants? I don't know personally, and despite some modest efforts I've had difficulty digging up much reliable data on the subject, but I don't see why it must.

People say things like "you can't get around the power imbalance," to which I say a) sure you can, depending on the circumstances and the personalities of the people involved, and b) there's no such thing as a relationship with perfect power balance so how does power imbalance invalidate it?

If a 25 year old son and his 45 year old mom are genuinely turned on by each other, why not? Who's to say the relationship will mess them up?

 

[alohadave]

Getting judgy and moralistic about other people's erotic fantasies always seems tedious and silly to me.

Being deviant and squicky is part of the point. There's a part in most of us that WANTS to be bad. Part of the appeal of The Godfather, or The Sopranos, or Silence of the Lambs, is rooting for the bad guys. There's a thrill to putting onself in the shoes of someone who gets away with doing something that society disapproves of.

That's the fantasy. I think it's healthy to be able to explore things like this in a safe space where there aren't real world consequences.

Is this necessarily true? I agree with respect to non con, because consent is essential, but is it necessarily true that adult consensual incest must be bad or damaging to the participants? I don't know personally, and despite some modest efforts I've had difficulty digging up much reliable data on the subject, but I don't see why it must.

People say things like "you can't get around the power imbalance," to which I say a) sure you can, depending on the circumstances and the personalities of the people involved, and b) there's no such thing as a relationship with perfect power balance so how does power imbalance invalidate it?

If a 25 year old son and his 45 year old mom are genuinely turned on by each other, why not? Who's to say the relationship will mess them up?

Could it happen in a healthy and mutually consensual way? Sure, and it probably has.

Without any stats, my feeling is that the cases where it works is the exception proving the rule.

And realistically, cases of incest usually do involve the power imbalance of an adult and a child. Where consent cannot be given, and the parent/child relationship hold extra sway.

 

[lovecraft68]

Is this necessarily true? I agree with respect to non con, because consent is essential, but is it necessarily true that adult consensual incest must be bad or damaging to the participants? I don't know personally, and despite some modest efforts I've had difficulty digging up much reliable data on the subject, but I don't see why it must.

People say things like "you can't get around the power imbalance," to which I say a) sure you can, depending on the circumstances and the personalities of the people involved, and b) there's no such thing as a relationship with perfect power balance so how does power imbalance invalidate it?

If a 25 year old son and his 45 year old mom are genuinely turned on by each other, why not? Who's to say the relationship will mess them up?

Most of incest in real life is abuse which is why I generally have the 'don't try this at home' attitude about it.
However, in the case of siblings I can see it happening albeit I think something is amiss somewhere to get the wires crossed, but they're usually close in age and close in other ways, the familial love just takes the extra step.

But in the case of parent and adult child, my personal feelings aren't positive on it because no matter how old you are, your parent is your parent and there is an unequal power dynamic, you were raised to obey this person and I feel those relationships can never be equal, more so unlike siblings who again are peers, a parent should always know better, even if the adult child is the instigator.

Real life isn't lit, and to me any form of parent child at any age is a form of manipulation and abuse. That's my opinion, others can agree and disagree.