Sean Renaud
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The rights that are "real" are whatever we collectively agree upon.
The rights that are "real" are whatever we collectively agree upon.
BotanyBoy
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I don't understand why that's such a difficult concept for conservatives to understand...along with the rest government/politics being a social construct existing no where but in the minds of the people that subscribe to it.
It's like they think it's some magical fucking entity LOL
SEVERUSMAX
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Natural rights are granted by Nature and not by majority vote, nor are they subject to the whims of a mob. That kind of legal positivist garbage, rejecting Natural Law, is how you end up with Hitler and the Holocaust, apartheid, and the Trail of Tears.
The Second Amendment does not create the right to keep and bear arms, for example, merely codifies it into constitutional law. That right pre-existed the Second Amendment and is a basic principle of Natural Law, that one has the right to defend one's life, liberty, and property, by force of arms if necessary.
The Second Amendment does not create the right to keep and bear arms, for example, merely codifies it into constitutional law. That right pre-existed the Second Amendment and is a basic principle of Natural Law, that one has the right to defend one's life, liberty, and property, by force of arms if necessary.
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Sean Renaud
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LOL. Nothing wrong with it. It's still an important issue in America.
No such thing as a natural right.
The fact that the framers of the Constitution chose to use words that assume these rights existed prior to them writing it does not make it so. They created that right when they wrote those words and we could (and to large extent HAVE) take that right away at any time for any reason we choose.
SEVERUSMAX
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The Framers believed in those rights and frankly so do I. I have no use for legal positivism or any other such nonsense. I firmly believe in Natural Law and natural rights, inalienable and all that. Disagree all you wish, but nothing will dissuade me from that firm conviction. Some things are above the rabble and the laws of men.
This is what makes slavery and tyranny wrong, after all, that they violate these laws of Nature and rights inherent which pre-exist civilization itself. The sole purpose of government is to protect the natural rights of Man.
This is what makes slavery and tyranny wrong, after all, that they violate these laws of Nature and rights inherent which pre-exist civilization itself. The sole purpose of government is to protect the natural rights of Man.
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SgtSpiderMan
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The framers owned slaves.
Sean Renaud
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What you do or don't believe doesn't have any effect on reality. And the Framers may have believed in those rights or they may not have. Without a time machine to ask them it's impossible to know for sure and ultimately it doesn't matter. There are things above the rabble and laws of men, but those are things that come down to science. The earth revolves around the sun no matter how many men believe the earth is the center of the universe. But rights? That's not amongst them.
No, what makes slavery and tyranny wrong is that they are wrong not that they violate some magical right and there is no sole purpose of government but if there was it would be to improve the lives of the people who live beneath it's control.
SEVERUSMAX
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There we disagree. You think that I am wrong. I think that you are wrong. So it must be. Happened before, likely happen again.
Then again, I believe in the Gods and not everyone does that, either.
Then again, I believe in the Gods and not everyone does that, either.
I disagree. One of the purposes of government is to protect the haves from the have-nots. One could argue that is the main purpose, actually.
Sean Renaud
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You believing in the Gods is where you get the insane idea that rights come from something other than man. However in this case the disagreement isn't important at all because the world functions according to my "belief".
I assume you're one of the few Americans who has no problem with Iran getting the bomb?
That's laughably insane.
No, it's laughably insane if you think the main purpose is to protect the have-nots from the haves.
SEVERUSMAX
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You're joking, right? Iran's mullahs are several fries short of a Happy Meal. I wouldn't trust them with a cherry bomb, let alone a nuke, but it is a tricky matter of what can be done to stop it, maybe sabotage of some kind. Or a few drones aimed at the mullahs' residences.
Sean Renaud
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So basically what your saying is that you know better than nature or your Gods as far as what rights exist and which ones don't?
That would make a whole lot more sense. I doubt either are true on any functional level but that idea is closer to reality than your incredibly stupid one.
I see you are an unbelievably naive fool.
cjh
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SEVERUSMAX
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Hardly. War is a part of nature and a part of reality. So is the right to defend against a threat. That's why there is a God of War.
Sean Renaud
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We're not at war with Iran though. Even if we were how exactly would that alter their God/Nature given natural rights? Clearly you place your judgement above this God.
Or I live in reality and can observe how the system works.
SEVERUSMAX
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Hardly. The Gods ordain the right to defend against a nuclear threat, just as they ordain war itself. They have no prohibition against necessary use of force against an enemy.
The system is really working for the little guy, and not for the rich and powerful, right? You are definitely a fool.
SEVERUSMAX
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Usually, I get along with Sean, but if he thinks that Zeus and Ares are opposed to necessary violence, he hasn't read up on his Hellenism. 
Sean Renaud
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Usually, I get along with Sean, but if he thinks that Zeus and Ares are opposed to necessary violence, he hasn't read up on his Hellenism.
Normally we don't talk politics.
If the Gods ordain the right to defend oneself then the Gods should be giving Iran the same right to the bomb that we have. They are living human beings just like us with the same right to defend themselves. We have proven on multiple occasions we have no problem with forcing them or the Iraqis to do what we want via force. Even if you buy that Israel would never attack anybody first the Iranians have no reason to accept "But I won't actually attack you" as a good reason not to arm up and even if they did Pakistan is pretty damn close and only quasi-friendly, Russia isn't too far or too kind to drop in if they felt like it.
So you're still wrong.
A lot more than it really has to yes, yes it is. But I said neither of them are really true.
Unbelievable. Your kind of naivete is ridiculous.
NeverEndingMe
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if you can't afford to get a ID then maybe you lack the intelligence to vote
voting shouldn't be a right ... it needs to be earned like a Drivers License
Lastly, if you go on welfare ... clearly you made poor decision and therefore must surrender your DL AND voting privilege
voting shouldn't be a right ... it needs to be earned like a Drivers License
Lastly, if you go on welfare ... clearly you made poor decision and therefore must surrender your DL AND voting privilege
NeverEndingMe
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