Serious question to men?

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[LIVINRFANTASIES]

Denny

6'2"...wow. Would NOT mind you behind me ...esp if your breathing heavy.

There are big women in and around Kissimmee. Look back now and then.

 

[Primalex]

In your experience. And that isn't to devalue your experience at all. You've clearly had very different experiences then I have. It makes me think about how recently my husband made the suggestion that I should walk to the nearby grocery store. He thought that it would allow for more exercise and save on gas money. I agreed with him on those points but told him I didn't want to do that. He at first thought it was because I wanted to be more "lazy." When I explained that walking the street to get to the store made me uncomfortable because every single time I've done it I've been honked at (it always scares the hell out of me every time because they drive past but only honk when they're next to me) or there have been instances of being yelled at. So I'm uncomfortable walking. My husband pointed out that he's never seen that happen, I told him they don't do it when he walks with me. And that never happens when he walks with me.

I think I've mentioned this issue in the perception thread, too.

You are missing the point though. This different perception goes both ways, not just one way. How can you declare that "women are often times judged more harshly simply for being women." without having any perception from the male side?

This is what rubs me the wrong way. The casualness with which women reserve the right to dismiss the male point of view on female issues, yet, at the same time have no problem to declare their female point of view as universal truth regarding male issues.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[MeekMe]

I think I've mentioned this issue in the perception thread, too.

You are missing the point though. This different perception goes both ways, not just one way. How can you declare that "women are often times judged more harshly simply for being women." without having any perception from the male side?

This is what rubs me the wrong way. The casualness with which women reserve the right to dismiss the male point of view on female issues, yet, at the same time have no problem to declare their female point of view as universal truth regarding male issues.

I'm not missing the point. I haven't said the male point of view is not welcomed or taken seriously. I haven't dismissed you. I've merely pointed out that we haven't had the same experiences. I don't think men are always treated well or fairly. I just happen to also think that a lot of men don't necessarily see the experiences that many women have. Like your point earlier that women don't always say what they mean. There's truth to that for sure. It's not made up by misogynists, but it is often used to undermine what women say.

And my comment about being judged more harshly has to do with how women are described compared to men in the workplace. This link is a few years old but says it pretty well. And the only reason I brought this up was because someone in the thread suggested OP change how she tells someone she isn't submissive to avoid challenging dominant men. I'm merely showing that we're told often to change our approach in many situations.

 

[MeekMe]

This is what rubs me the wrong way. The casualness with which women reserve the right to dismiss the male point of view on female issues, yet, at the same time have no problem to declare their female point of view as universal truth regarding male issues.

Out of all the men here I typically like the way you treat everyone equally. You do not coddle women the same as you do not coddle men. I like this. You don't automatically agree with someone because there's a chance you might get to see their tits. So I don't dismiss your viewpoint. I can't speak for anyone else.

 

[Primalex]

I haven't dismissed you.
[...]
So I don't dismiss your viewpoint. I can't speak for anyone else.

I was speaking in general.

It could even be more general, because it's the same for black vs. white or any other combination where perceptions diverge wildly.

 

[SalvDali]

I have a lesbian friend who has asked me why straight men won't leave her alone even after she tells them she doesn't date men. The problem is (as I told her) you are asking me why assholes are assholes. I couldn't begin to explain why a dumb ass would keep pursuing something he can't have...

..... unless that is it..


Maybe some people just want what they can't have. It is just a guess.. I have no way of knowing for sure. Next time ask the asshole ...

 

[cfuhrer]

"I am not submissive" is not the same as saying "I am a Domme".

If you want to be on equal footing, use equal language.

 

[MeekMe]

I think some of the hostility or perceived hostility comes from always having to defend an issue. Sometimes when we say "hey, this might be a problem that a lot of X people deal with." There is usually someone to say "Y people deal with this too!" So we trudge out the papers, studies and anecdotes and even still someone says, "ok, but this seems exaggerated. We (Y) still deal with this too!"

And then there are the "assholes will be assholes" comments. I get it. I agree that assholes will be assholes. I strongly believe that there are assholes of all types in the world from every kind of background. No doubt about it.

But this is an issue that was specifically brought up about male dominants feeling a sense of challenge towards a woman saying she isn't submissive. Serious questions, is this an issue for men? Do women (or even other men) not believe it when you say you aren't submissive or take it as a challenge to persuade you otherwise? Are there any men here that have told women (or men) they are gay and the other still persists?

Also, I read your response, Elle. He believed me and said that if it made me uncomfortable that I shouldn't do it. But I don't expect to be believed without providing some form of proof that something is a problem. I'm in the boat of "provide proof that this issue exists and let's work together towards a solution."

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Farawyn]

I think some of the hostility or perceived hostility comes from always having to defend an issue. Sometimes when we say "hey, this might be a problem that a lot of X people deal with." There is usually someone to say "Y people deal with this too!" So we trudge out the papers, studies and anecdotes and even still someone says, "ok, but this seems exaggerated. We (Y) still deal with this too!"

And then there are the "assholes will be assholes" comments. I get it. I agree that assholes will be assholes. I strongly believe that there are assholes of all types in the world from every kind of background. No doubt about it.

But this is an issue that was specifically brought up about male dominants feeling a sense of challenge towards a woman saying she isn't submissive. Serious questions, is this an issue for men? Do women (or even other men) not believe it when you say you aren't submissive or take it as a challenge to persuade you otherwise? Are there any men here that have told women (or men) they are gay and the other still persists?

Also, I read your response, Elle. He believed me and said that if it made me uncomfortable that I shouldn't do it. But I don't expect to be believed without providing some form of proof that something is a problem. I'm in the boat of "provide proof that this issue exists and let's work together towards a solution."

The first part, right on.
Work anecdotes, Affirmative Action, whatever this has morphed into.
The question was asked by the OP. And yes...
Have the men here been challenged by women or other men the way OP has? Yes to all you've said, resoundingly, up until you speak to Elle.
Your word should be good enough. Period. I'm science gal. Double blind studies bla bla bla, but not for relationships.

But you weren't talking to me, there.

 

[staciliv]

I think a lot of men have trouble taking women seriously, or believe that all women are -actually- submissive if they (the men) are "man enough."

Well...

Most of the 'Doms I've run into on Lit are 'wannabes who are actually only interested in getting a bj. (Interesting since when a guys cock is in my mouth I am firmly in control). So maybe they want to Dom you to get a bj which would actually put YOU in charge?

Convuleted way to get you to too someone I admit -but everyone knows the male brain is very convuleted. Almost everyone I should say.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Bramblethorn]

Women often times have to change their wording to keep keep from hurting/challenging men in the workplace. Apparently, this extends here as well.

I have no idea how "I'm not submissive," equates to challenging someone to a dual. I'd think anyone that sees that as a challenge needs to check their insecurities.

I'm late to the party, but this.

Also, there is empirical verification that women get judged more harshly than men for assertive behaviour: "While [asking for more pay] had a significant negative effect on the hireability of both male and female candidates, the negative effect for women was more than twice that for men... attempting to negotiate for higher compensation had no significant effect on the evaluators’ willingness to work with a male candidate... In contrast, attempting to negotiate significantly reduced the evaluators’ willingness to work with a female candidate".

Also, just a couple of months ago we had a dude on here describing how offended he was by the idea that women would presume to dominate him, and talking about his plans to find a pro-domme and teach her a violent lesson and make her submit. Masculinity is very easily challenged by a dominant woman, even when the guy has fucking PAID HER TO BE DOMINANT.

Instead of just pulling the "well women say it happens but men say it doesn't and these are equally valid positions" that I'm seeing in this thread... perhaps consider that women have a lot more reason to be aware of male norms than vice versa? And that people actually do study stuff like this, and it's not very hard to find empirical research instead of just trying to shut down women who mention that there's a problem?

 

[DrDelirium]

But this is an issue that was specifically brought up about male dominants feeling a sense of challenge towards a woman saying she isn't submissive. Serious questions, is this an issue for men? Do women (or even other men) not believe it when you say you aren't submissive or take it as a challenge to persuade you otherwise? Are there any men here that have told women (or men) they are gay and the other still persists?

There are always people who continue to push for something they want despite being told their advances aren't welcome. In the US, we tend to celebrate this in every area of life except sex, although it used to be expected there also. We're encouraged to think that hard work and persistence will win the day in school, sports, business, war, and what have you. The idea that a man should simply give up at the first rebuff from someone he finds attractive is a pretty new one, as is the idea that it's some kind of insult for one person to express interest in another if it hasn't been pre-approved. So I get that the unwanted attentions of men may be annoying and sometimes even threatening, but I think it's something that is just going to happen in the nature of things. That some of this is problematic across dom/sub lines is not really different from the other cases you mention (all of which I've seen), or divisions between black and white, rich and poor, educated and uneducamatedted or any number of other things. The fact that persistence sometimes does pay off suggests that it's a legitimate strategy even if some people don't like being on the receiving end of it.
Also, what, exactly, is the alternative?

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Farawyn]

There are always people who continue to push for something they want despite being told their advances aren't welcome. In the US, we tend to celebrate this in every area of life except sex, although it used to be expected there also. We're encouraged to think that hard work and persistence will win the day in school, sports, business, war, and what have you. The idea that a man should simply give up at the first rebuff from someone he finds attractive is a pretty new one, as is the idea that it's some kind of insult for one person to express interest in another if it hasn't been pre-approved. So I get that the unwanted attentions of men may be annoying and sometimes even threatening, but I think it's something that is just going to happen in the nature of things. That some of this is problematic across dom/sub lines is not really different from the other cases you mention (all of which I've seen), or divisions between black and white, rich and poor, educated and uneducamatedted or any number of other things. The fact that persistence sometimes does pay off suggests that it's a legitimate strategy even if some people don't like being on the receiving end of it.
Also, what, exactly, is the alternative?

Sit down and behave yourself and wait, without expectation or entitlement. Like everyone else does.
Or, chase subs. Not Dommes.

 

[Primalex]

But this is an issue that was specifically brought up about male dominants

Right.

And? What happens? Women state what is going on and what a correct answer is and what not. And they defend their position with what kind of attack?

"Any man who thinks so suffers from 'insecurity'."

Because it's a sin for men to be insecure. Nobody feels bad for an insecure man, an insecure man is a pathetic worm. And a second later the same women complain when such cultural standards are applied to them.

 

[Farawyn]

Right.

And? What happens? Women state what is going on and what a correct answer is and what not. And they defend their position with what kind of attack?

"Any man who thinks so suffers from 'insecurity'."

Because it's a sin for men to be insecure. Nobody feels bad for an insecure man, an insecure man is a pathetic worm.

As long as your (rhetorical) insecurity doesn't turn into harassment of me, have at it.

 

[Slickrick123]

Why do you feel the need to try and dominate a Domme?

Insecurity perhaps.... either way it's very foolish of him.

 

[Primalex]

Instead of just pulling the "well women say it happens but men say it doesn't and these are equally valid positions" that I'm seeing in this thread...

Maybe you should have your eyes checked.

And that people actually do study stuff like this, and it's not very hard to find empirical research instead of just trying to shut down women who mention that there's a problem?

The male participants were answering a question.
Whether the female participants on the first page did contribute anything useful to answering the question - well, you likely have an opinion that won't even change if you re-read the thread.

 

[Farawyn]

This is an aside.

Elle and Meek, a sidebar. The more I think about what you say about proof the more I get you, and yes, Elle, I can see what you mean. It doesn't have to do with trust.
The word proof is what I was reacting to.

Talking about a relationship. Not random men.

Maybe a better word is validation.

I don't know. This is a non issue for me in my relationship.

 

[Blue]

So am I alone in thinking this is all being made very overly complicated?
OP said:

Why a good share of Doms always feel the need to dominate a Domme?

Yes it happens to me all the time and they get pissy when I tell them I am not, not do I want to be submissive..

There's no personal challenges, or ego-battling for higher ranks in the social hierarchy, institutional corporate biases or strange armchair psychology going on. At least to me, this is just basic example number 95,872 of grossly arrogant people who get pissed when their advances get rejected, regardless of whatever their personal preferences are. The asshat thread is full of 'em.

Interesting conversations anyway

 

[Primalex]

At least to me, this is just basic example 95,872 of grossly arrogant people who get pissed when their advances get rejected, regardless of whatever their personal preferences are.

I was not able to make up my mind yet, because the OP refused to answer my simple questions. I have no idea what kind of behavior she actually complains about, because "the battle commences" is not a useful description.

(Did I mention ambiguous communication already?)