Sexless Marriage

[footlongish]

You guys don't know the half of it. Search my posting history. Lots of pain in my life over being married to basically the wrong woman.

Sure, everyone says communicate, but once you done that and it doesn't work, it is time to move on. I sure wish I would have 10 years ago. My life would be a lot different.

One thing I really learned this week is how much of my own needs I buried and how much I sacrificed to make things work. I'm just beginning to realize that. And I'm interacting with people that are talking about what its like after the separation/divorce and there is light at the end of the tunnel.

And if you are Catholic, don't let the church BS you into staying for any of their silly reasons. I'm Catholic, so I can say that.

I could go on and on.

I'll say this, that coming onto Lit and starting to talk about this and making some new friends to help me deal with the situation made a huge difference for me.

 

[footlongish]

BTW: I'm only a little further along in the process than you are. First step is to start talking to yourself and people outside your marriage about what is wrong. Open up. Second step is to make a list of what you want from a marriage.

Third step is to be GREEDY. Yes, you read that right ! You know why I am still in my marriage ? I'm a giver. I put a lot of effort into keeping it working even when I am not getting much out of it. The only way you'll be happy in a relationship is when your needs are met. And if your present partner isn't doing that for you and isn't willing to do that for you, then you know what you have to do to be happy again ! Leave her.

And one more thing... if you are the giver in the relationship like I am, she isn't going to want you to leave ! Ironically. Guess what ? You've been making things comfortable for her. Sure, she doesn't like it when you complain (talk) about your unmet needs, but as long as you keep your mouth shut, she is fairly content. That all goes out the window the first time you pack your bags. Just so you know.

 

[footlongish]

" I wish Viosh and NevrGettinOld all the best of luck."

Viosh and Nevr... and me don't need luck. What me need are people on this board to talk about about stuff. We need to ask yucky questions (see my posting history) and we need to get our minds around what we need and we need to get greedy and courageous.

Its very hard to leave an existing family. But it hurts like hell to lay in bed at 3AM feeling alone and unloved too. The hurt over leaving the family will go away over time. You might even become part of another, maybe even better family. But chances are that lonely feeling you have at 3AM ain't never going to go away.

I found it interesting to post my profile on a dating site. www.plentyoffish.com, just to see the reaction and to talk with other single/separated/divorced people. No, I am not dating anyone. There lots of great 30-45 year old divorced people out there looking for a second chance.

One other thing. You have to dissect your existing relationship and figure out what went wrong where AND DON'T REPEAT THE SAME MISTAKE IN YOUR SECOND RELATIONSHIP. Not everything that happened was her fault. You were there too.

I happened to run into a person that had the same sort of marriage failure that mine had and we compared notes. Very interesting. I shed some tears. My failures are pretty obvious and its obvious the situation can't be fixed either. Generally, people don't change their spots.

Like I said, I could go on and on on this topic. And I am by no means done.

And one more thing... get back on the horse. Get separated and then get out of the house. Some people deal with separation by sitting at home and thinking about it. I highly believe this is the wrong approach. I don't say jump into a relationship, but DO make friends and DO talk to people.

Being divorced isn't a disease and it isn't a sickness. Its a life state and a temporary one at that.

 

[footlongish]

And counselling ? Well, I don't have a high opinion of it.

I learned way more talking to other divorcees and reading stuff on Lit. Find another divorcee going through the same thing as you, but further along the process and OPEN UP. Talk about all those hurts and what goes on and what you need. You might be surprised at what comes out. What you didn't realize was inside you.

I'm not a good person to talk about this stuff yet. I'm not far enough through it yet.

And its really interesting what comes up when talking to someone who thinks they are totally through it. Sometimes they revert a bit and need to talk to YOU.

Read Gottman, 7 Steps to something Marriage. And then read some of the stuff on the Internet about his work. Very interesting. I know how to spot a bad relationship from a mile away now. Dating is going to be fun... I'll never, ever settle for anything but a great relationship again. I'd rather be single and date for the rest of my life than be in a bad relationship.

 

[footlongish]

<sheepishly...> I'll shut up now...

 

[human_male]

" I wish Viosh and NevrGettinOld all the best of luck."

Viosh and Nevr... and me don't need luck.

I was just wishing them well in leu of any practical, concrete advice which I don't feel qualified to offer. What's wrong with that?

 

[footlongish]

Nothing wrong with that. I was dramatizing. But what we really need is people to talk to.

 

[SesameStreet]

What the hell do we do?

If your wife has used sex as a sort of weapon and only "Doles it out" to get what she wanted then you need to accept that she is a manipulator and will never change. Accept that and get out before you are so old that you have to use Viagra to even enjoy sex.

 

[SweetErika]

And counselling ? Well, I don't have a high opinion of it.

I learned way more talking to other divorcees and reading stuff on Lit. Find another divorcee going through the same thing as you, but further along the process and OPEN UP. Talk about all those hurts and what goes on and what you need. You might be surprised at what comes out. What you didn't realize was inside you.

I'm not a good person to talk about this stuff yet. I'm not far enough through it yet.

And its really interesting what comes up when talking to someone who thinks they are totally through it. Sometimes they revert a bit and need to talk to YOU.

Read Gottman, 7 Steps to something Marriage. And then read some of the stuff on the Internet about his work. Very interesting. I know how to spot a bad relationship from a mile away now. Dating is going to be fun... I'll never, ever settle for anything but a great relationship again. I'd rather be single and date for the rest of my life than be in a bad relationship.

What happened to trying to work it out, Foot? I'm not criticizing, and am one who suggested divorce might be the best option in your sex thread, but I'm curious as to what caused such a change of heart in just a week or two -- you seemed so adamant that you two were best friends who loved each other and would make it work.

 

[Eilan]

I'd like to hear the other side of the story.

 

[past_perfect]

First of all: I can relate to your problems, as I had a similar experience with my ex-wife. But there are a few things I noticed in your descriptions which make me wonder, if you fully understand the scope of your problem and the necessary steps to remedy it. I don't want to lecture you, but if you had a counsellor worth your money they should have given you the following essential pointers:
Sexual desire is non-negotiable. If you want her to want you, you can work on creating an atmosphere of openness and trust, which may be conducive to rekindle a waning interest, but that's about it. A relationship is not a vending-machine, where you can put something in and expect to get out what you want, once you press what you consider to be the right buttons. If you feel that she should accommodate you regardless of her own readiness and volition out of love or a sense of obligation, you might want to consider that this could be what she has done in the past and possibly be part and parcel of the problem.

There are several different possibilities why her interest waned. She might be aware of them, or she might not be. She might eschew discussions about it, because she is aware of them and doesn't want to hurt you. In that case, you need to reassure her that you are willing to accept serious blows to your self-esteem and confidence in order to tackle the problem together, but only if you are both really ready for that. She might think she knows the root causes and discovers in the process that there was more to it, once some of her grievances have been addressed. She might have difficulties to address or even acknowledge the problem because she is unwilling to admit to you and/or herself that it has progressed beyond redemption and regards the status quo as the lesser of two evils.
Stop limiting your perception of her and her actions to your own preconceptions and interpretations and attempt to really listen to what she has to say about herself and you. Encourage and empower her to do the same.
Hope this helps.

 

[Madam_Innocent]

Okay I was once married so I can totally relate, but I was the one begging for it. Am I the only nympho over-sexed female in Australia? Why suddenly do all these wives not want to have sex? Did I manage to get out of my marriage before that happened?

Very curious. Would like to know if all housewives are undersexed / oversexed and if you get divorced do you get your sex drive back??

As for advice to this poor person... ummm.... okay I just left the marriage, so not sure *smiles* I guess all you can do is grin and bear it, especially if she's not willing to be adventurous

MI

 

[Flyin_Free]

You know, from another perspective, if your wives are feeling unloved, taken advantage of, or unappreciated during the day, then they may not feel like having sex once the lights go out. It doesn't mean that they're not lonely too, but just that they want more than just sex to make everything OK.

I really think that there were nights when both my ex and I would lay there side by side, both lonely, both craving togetherness and neither willing to turn to the other for whatever reasons. It didn't mean that I didn't love him, just that we were so far apart emotionally during the day (and so many walls had been built up) that eventually I didn't even want to be close to him physically during the night. This ISN'T why we split up (and I won't talk about why we did) but before the thing happened that made me leave him, we already had lots of trouble in our marriage.

So even though I loved him, and I knew he wanted sex I wasn't willing to just have sex with him because I wanted so much more than a 10 minute romp. I wanted to know and feel that he really loved me, cared for me, needed me, and respected me too.

What I'm trying to say I guess is that sex is Not just a physical act. I think that sometimes you have to fix all the emotional stuff before sex can even BE good again. And just because she's not having sex with you, doesn't necessarily mean she isn't lonely too or doesn't love or need you, maybe it just means that she needs to know how much you need her, so that emotional walls can start to be broken down.

 

[londonaberdeen]

The outstanding post award goes to Flyin_Free.

I agree 100% with every she has said.

 

[M's girl]

You know, from another perspective, if your wives are feeling unloved, taken advantage of, or unappreciated during the day, then they may not feel like having sex once the lights go out. It doesn't mean that they're not lonely too, but just that they want more than just sex to make everything OK.

I really think that there were nights when both my ex and I would lay there side by side, both lonely, both craving togetherness and neither willing to turn to the other for whatever reasons. It didn't mean that I didn't love him, just that we were so far apart emotionally during the day (and so many walls had been built up) that eventually I didn't even want to be close to him physically during the night. This ISN'T why we split up (and I won't talk about why we did) but before the thing happened that made me leave him, we already had lots of trouble in our marriage.

So even though I loved him, and I knew he wanted sex I wasn't willing to just have sex with him because I wanted so much more than a 10 minute romp. I wanted to know and feel that he really loved me, cared for me, needed me, and respected me too.

What I'm trying to say I guess is that sex is Not just a physical act. I think that sometimes you have to fix all the emotional stuff before sex can even BE good again. And just because she's not having sex with you, doesn't necessarily mean she isn't lonely too or doesn't love or need you, maybe it just means that she needs to know how much you need her, so that emotional walls can start to be broken down.

True.

 

[NevrGettinOld]

where to start...

foot, u have been takin it on the chin! i havent been abale to go back and look at your old posts, but i get the idea that you were willing to work it out for a long time. i would have said the same things before. even after the counselling thing failed, a while later, i went back by myself to see what i could do. i felt like a guy trying to help an old lady across the street only to find out she was waiting for a bus! hang in there buddy, i appreciate the help you offer.

and i agree with all the ladies regarding sex being way more than physical. i used to be pretty ok at math, so i did some. there have been several things that, by themselves, didnt seem to be a big deal, but when put together, added up to a clear message. here are a few highlights...

even before we ever had sex, she once grabbed the goods and gave them a squeeze, saying "that's for you," as if handing a tip to a doorman.

+

the thing i got the most grief for during sex was that i was interested in her getting off (often accompanied by, "would you just finish")

+

routinely, after a day of hints and calls saying "cant wait to get my hands on you tonite" and all the other buildup, ending in rejection (yeah, she was tired, SO WAS I!)

=

i got nothing left, im out of gas

so, the bottom line is, i believe i have to get out and spend every bit of energy i have makin it as right as i can by my kids

i really appreciate all the opinions and good luck to others in my situation

 

[KINDGIRL]

SAME...but different

I have been going throught the same problem, except it is my husband who has lost interest in sex (at least with me). From the start, he was not "sexually motivated" if you know what I mean. He took the passive role, and if I didn't initiate - it didn't happen.
From here we moved to out and out rejection. He just told me he was tired or whatever and that was that. I kind of forced the issue and he saw a DR. This doc was quite thorough and no physical problems were found besides slightly high BP, but nothing diet wouldn't take care of.
Fast forward a few years.... He still is not interested in sex, but now says it is ME I am "too sexual" or "too intense". He says he doesn't know what to do for me/with me, so he has basically washed his hands of me sexually (so to speak). He loves me and wants the family to stay together, but he says I can go ahead and find sex elsewhere. BTW - he won't consider sex counseling at all (by himself or with me), but is in individual counseling for anger issues, etc.

So - that is where it stands at the moment. He is living away from home (he travels for work M-F, so I am only talking weekends now). We are looking for a place with a bedroom for each of us. Divorce would mean the kids go to daycare and I go to work. He doesnt want this anymore than I do. So for now at least, this is the best plan.

I don't know if that helps or not...but sometimes knowing there is someone else in the same boat helps a bit.

 

[SusanneS]

so, the bottom line is, i believe i have to get out and spend every bit of energy i have makin it as right as i can by my kids

I found that getting out gave me heaps more energy to spend on my kids.
When you are in a situation you don't want to be in, you want out, that takes all your energy. Get out of it and you'll find the energy.

 

[midwestyankee]

This isn't quite my situation (though it's not far off) and I have deep sympathy for anyone who is in a truly sexless marriage. The decisions one must weigh when children are involved are difficult and overwhelming. I wish I could offer some helpful advice, but these are choices that have to come from both the heart and the brain and are completely individual.

 

[Malaria]

doesn't this all just boil down to what makes you happy? If your relationships no longer make you happy for one reason or another, thats what needs to be addressed. You have to be a bit greedy and selfish to achieve it. Others will be condescending and judgemental. Being true to yourself (how cheesy) is one of the most important things in the world.

 

[Sarojaede]

This isn't quite my situation (though it's not far off) and I have deep sympathy for anyone who is in a truly sexless marriage. The decisions one must weigh when children are involved are difficult and overwhelming. I wish I could offer some helpful advice, but these are choices that have to come from both the heart and the brain and are completely individual.

I can't really offer any helpful advice either, except to echo what MWY has said. The choices are individual and often difficult when children are involved.

I can't say that my marriage is completely 100% sexless, but I have a much, much higher sex drive than my husband and am more willing to explore various things than my husband. This much higher sex drive and willingness to explore leads to a great deal of frustration, even with our communication, which is not stelllar but is getting better.

 

[silverwhisper]

SJ quoth
but is getting better.

that, my dear friend, feeds my soul.

ed

 

[footlongish]

What happened to trying to work it out, Foot? I'm not criticizing, and am one who suggested divorce might be the best option in your sex thread, but I'm curious as to what caused such a change of heart in just a week or two -- you seemed so adamant that you two were best friends who loved each other and would make it work.

Well, a couple things. First of all, thanks for carring enough to follow my story.

#1- I've made some friends with people going through the same thing. And the first thing they suggested I do was get in touch with my own needs and wants. And when I do, I see that this has really hurt me. I'm more injured and angry about this than I realized.

#2-I've already put 14+ years into the relationship. I'm not getting any younger. I could waste the next several years on this issue only to find that it isn't solvable. We are just incompatible. And, given what we have now, I would really have to wonder how good the compromise would be. Basically, am I prepared to give up intimacy for the rest of my life. The answer is no.

First of all: I can relate to your problems, as I had a similar experience with my ex-wife. But there are a few things I noticed in your descriptions which make me wonder, if you fully understand the scope of your problem and the necessary steps to remedy it. I don't want to lecture you, but if you had a counsellor worth your money they should have given you the following essential pointers:
Sexual desire is non-negotiable. If you want her to want you, you can work on creating an atmosphere of openness and trust, which may be conducive to rekindle a waning interest, but that's about it. A relationship is not a vending-machine, where you can put something in and expect to get out what you want, once you press what you consider to be the right buttons.

I totally agree with what you are saying here. As far as I can tell, sexual incompatibility is non "fixable". Either it is there or it isn't.

There are several different possibilities why her interest waned. She might be aware of them, or she might not be. She might eschew discussions about it, because she is aware of them and doesn't want to hurt you. In that case, you need to reassure her that you are willing to accept serious blows to your self-esteem and confidence in order to tackle the problem together, but only if you are both really ready for that. She might think she knows the root causes and discovers in the process that there was more to it, once some of her grievances have been addressed. She might have difficulties to address or even acknowledge the problem because she is unwilling to admit to you and/or herself that it has progressed beyond redemption and regards the status quo as the lesser of two evils.
Stop limiting your perception of her and her actions to your own preconceptions and interpretations and attempt to really listen to what she has to say about herself and you. Encourage and empower her to do the same.

I agree with you, but she and I have had this problem since day 1 and at day 1 there was certainly no reason to have a problem. I have nurtured and communicated and been patient and done this and that, all to no avail. And I've been in other relationships where we didn't have this problem, at all. So I think there comes a time when one has to say enough is enough and move on.

You know, from another perspective, if your wives are feeling unloved, taken advantage of, or unappreciated during the day, then they may not feel like having sex once the lights go out. It doesn't mean that they're not lonely too, but just that they want more than just sex to make everything OK.

Some women just don't like sex. That is the way it is.

I really think that there were nights when both my ex and I would lay there side by side, both lonely, both craving togetherness and neither willing to turn to the other for whatever reasons. It didn't mean that I didn't love him, just that we were so far apart emotionally during the day (and so many walls had been built up) that eventually I didn't even want to be close to him physically during the night.

My wife and I have issues outside the bedroom too. She beat the crap out of me for 10 years with her temper. She is working on that and seems to be better. But the sex thing is unfixable as far as I can see. Maybe I did do something to cause it. If she can't forgive me or tell me what I did then it doesn't really matter if that is it, does it ?

What I'm trying to say I guess is that sex is Not just a physical act. I think that sometimes you have to fix all the emotional stuff before sex can even BE good again. And just because she's not having sex with you, doesn't necessarily mean she isn't lonely too or doesn't love or need you, maybe it just means that she needs to know how much you need her, so that emotional walls can start to be broken down.

We've had this problem since day 1.

where to start...
foot, u have been takin it on the chin! i havent been abale to go back and look at your old posts, but i get the idea that you were willing to work it out for a long time. i would have said the same things before. even after the counselling thing failed, a while later, i went back by myself to see what i could do. i felt like a guy trying to help an old lady across the street only to find out she was waiting for a bus! hang in there buddy, i appreciate the help you offer.

Thanks.

and i agree with all the ladies regarding sex being way more than physical. i used to be pretty ok at math, so i did some. there have been several things that, by themselves, didnt seem to be a big deal, but when put together, added up to a clear message. here are a few highlights...

My comments under your examples below...

the thing i got the most grief for during sex was that i was interested in her getting off (often accompanied by, "would you just finish")

Doesn't that just kill you. It rips my heart out when that happens. Here I am TRYING to be close and intimate with my wife, trying to make it pleasurable and show her how much I love HER and want to give HER pleasure and she acts disinterested and treats sex as a chore. HELLO ! I married her because I love her and I treat he the best way I know how 24/7. And I want to be close to her in bed and she treats my actions as a chore ! I don't know of anything that a woman could do that could hurt a man more.

And I know that with women that would be yelling "don't stop" at the top of their lungs under the same circumstances.

"routinely, after a day of hints and calls saying "cant wait to get my hands on you tonite" and all the other buildup, ending in rejection (yeah, she was tired, SO WAS I!)"

I get the same thing. A guilt trip about not wanting to have sex with her. But the sex is terrible. So much complaining. I work my butt off in bed. I have to try 18 things before I find the one she likes. She can never tell me. Its a guessing game every time. And I have never heard any appreciation for what I do. None.

i got nothing left, im out of gas

I am right behind you buddy. I'm running on fumes.

so, the bottom line is, i believe i have to get out and spend every bit of energy i have makin it as right as i can by my kids

It might even turn out better than that. We might find partners that love us as much as we love them. Imagine that. Maybe our new partners won't find it a chore to make love with us. Maybe we will be thanked for making an effort.

I have been going throught the same problem, except it is my husband who has lost interest in sex (at least with me). From the start, he was not "sexually motivated" if you know what I mean. He took the passive role, and if I didn't initiate - it didn't happen.

I am sorry this is happening to you. You probably deserve better.

From here we moved to out and out rejection. He just told me he was tired or whatever and that was that. I kind of forced the issue and he saw a DR. This doc was quite thorough and no physical problems were found besides slightly high BP, but nothing diet wouldn't take care of.
Fast forward a few years.... He still is not interested in sex, but now says it is ME I am "too sexual" or "too intense". He says he doesn't know what to do for me/with me, so he has basically washed his hands of me sexually (so to speak). He loves me and wants the family to stay together, but he says I can go ahead and find sex elsewhere. BTW - he won't consider sex counseling at all (by himself or with me), but is in individual counseling for anger issues, etc.

So - that is where it stands at the moment. He is living away from home (he travels for work M-F, so I am only talking weekends now). We are looking for a place with a bedroom for each of us. Divorce would mean the kids go to daycare and I go to work. He doesnt want this anymore than I do. So for now at least, this is the best plan.

I don't know if that helps or not...but sometimes knowing there is someone else in the same boat helps a bit.

I don't know what to say. He has given you permission to go outside of the relationship, which is interesting, but you know what, I would want more than that. I want my partner to love me and I love my partner. If I have to go outside the relationship to get what I need, I want a new partner, not an affair. Call me old fashioned.

so, the bottom line is, i believe i have to get out and spend every bit of energy i have makin it as right as i can by my kids

I found that getting out gave me heaps more energy to spend on my kids.
When you are in a situation you don't want to be in, you want out, that takes all your energy. Get out of it and you'll find the energy.

Yeah, well I found this relationship stuff killed my ability to work. Totally wiped it out. Put me in a mild depression too. I actually didn't realize that all this stuff was going on. I was just tired of working.

This isn't quite my situation (though it's not far off) and I have deep sympathy for anyone who is in a truly sexless marriage. The decisions one must weigh when children are involved are difficult and overwhelming. I wish I could offer some helpful advice, but these are choices that have to come from both the heart and the brain and are completely individual.

I used to think that too. Now I think that as soon as the relationship doesn't work on all levels and it is found to be non fixable, it is time to get out. As painful as that may be. I don't think we are doing anyone a favor by staying in these bad relationships. I kick myself daily for not having gotten out of mine YEARS ago. I left my wife 5 years ago over this same stuff. 5 years later we still have the same problems.

How stupid I was to come back.

 

[footlongish]

doesn't this all just boil down to what makes you happy? If your relationships no longer make you happy for one reason or another, thats what needs to be addressed. You have to be a bit greedy and selfish to achieve it. Others will be condescending and judgemental. Being true to yourself (how cheesy) is one of the most important things in the world.

That is exactly it. I always felt guilty for wanting a good sex life. My wife works and she is tired so I would defer my needs. She wasn't in the mood. I would defer my needs. She didn't want to do XYZ. I would defer my needs. She treats me terrible in bed. I would defer my needs. Well guess what ? I'm not going to defer my needs any more.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

You know, from another perspective, if your wives are feeling unloved, taken advantage of, or unappreciated during the day, then they may not feel like having sex once the lights go out. It doesn't mean that they're not lonely too, but just that they want more than just sex to make everything OK.

I really think that there were nights when both my ex and I would lay there side by side, both lonely, both craving togetherness and neither willing to turn to the other for whatever reasons. It didn't mean that I didn't love him, just that we were so far apart emotionally during the day (and so many walls had been built up) that eventually I didn't even want to be close to him physically during the night. This ISN'T why we split up (and I won't talk about why we did) but before the thing happened that made me leave him, we already had lots of trouble in our marriage.

So even though I loved him, and I knew he wanted sex I wasn't willing to just have sex with him because I wanted so much more than a 10 minute romp. I wanted to know and feel that he really loved me, cared for me, needed me, and respected me too.

What I'm trying to say I guess is that sex is Not just a physical act. I think that sometimes you have to fix all the emotional stuff before sex can even BE good again. And just because she's not having sex with you, doesn't necessarily mean she isn't lonely too or doesn't love or need you, maybe it just means that she needs to know how much you need her, so that emotional walls can start to be broken down.

Some truth to this, but you never hear of anyone viewing it this way when a MAN doesn't want to do it. He's always just neglecting his wife. And sometimes the wives ARE a bit to blame, either solely or partially.

And sometimes it's a vicious cycle ....no sex leads to no affection, which leads again to no sex and no affection. That sort of thing.

There are many sides to this kind of story.