Sexless Marriage

[Malaria]

and good for you. this is the sort of thing that strengthens my belief that humans aren't really meant to be monogamous. Serial monogamy seems to suit so many people so much better.
the fact that you did go back 5 years ago should show you that this is obviously unfixable and needs ultimate action. I won't wish you luck but my thoughts and will are with you

 

[bobsgirl]

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[footlongish]

Thanks, Malaria. I appreciate your interest and concern as to what happens to me. It is very helpful for me to have these discussions here. I know some of you are sick of it, but really, until I came on Lit a month ago, I had no place to "work" on all this.

 

[Malaria]

i think the one thing thats become clear through this thread is the inaction is the worst route to take. Doesn't mean you have to jump straight to divorce though. Everyone is different and the choices made in these situations are the ones that make and break you

 

[3113]

We've had this problem since day 1.

From the first day you met her? Why did you get married then? Not criticizing, just curious. I mean, I certainly understand when relationships start out high and flying and then spiral down to crash over a period of time...but if you started on the ground, if there was never any flying...I guess what I'm asking is, what was there that made you want her in the first place? From Day 1? And if there was so little from Day 1, why go to the altar and take those vows and buy a home together and make a life with her?

 

[footlongish]

OK, here is a curve ball for everyone.

In a week or so, I am going to have the big discussion with my wife that says I am out of here for good. And I still love this woman. And I know that she will plead with me not to go. The exact words will be something along the line of "I will do **ANYTHING**" to make this work."

OK, so if that is really the case, that she will do **ANYTHING**, then this situation should be fixable, right ?

So here is the question. When she says **ANYTHING**, what do I say ? I mean, how does one get the woman he loves to be sexually loving to him when she isn't ?

That is the part I don't understand. We got married in the Catholic church and did our vows, you know the whole "love and cherish through sickness and in health, rich or poor, till death do us part" stuff.

Well, isn't lovemaking and being intimate with your partner part of the "love" part of the vows ? And she took those vows of her own free will. So why am I not getting loved ? She changed her mind ? So much for taking vows !

Part of the problem was our intimacy was broken before we got married. Maybe she thought what we had was going to be it for intimacy. But shouldn't one expect a relationship to grow over time ? I guess maybe I take relationships more seriously than other people do.

 

[footlongish]

"From the first day you met her?"

From when we started being intimate. Went on a Christmas ski trip and had 2 nights of great intimate sex. Came home, she visited me in my apartment. I insinuated that I would like to make love to her and she said something to the effect of "I don't just want to be having sex all the time."

I thought it was a sex before marriage Catholic guilt thing. I had never been in a relationship with anyting but great sex and intimacy. I couldn't imagine that a partner wouldn't want to share with the other. So we got married and nothing changed. It maybe got worse.

And to be fair, other parts of the relationship work pretty well.

And, I have found out, I am a giver. I do what it takes to make things work, subverting my own needs in the process. Its a very bad habit.

 

[Malaria]

you deserve massive amounts of points for trying so hard for so long. men like you are rarer than they should be

 

[Mazuri]

So here is the question. When she says **ANYTHING**, what do I say ? I mean, how does one get the woman he loves to be sexually loving to him when she isn't ?

Print off the parts of these threads that you feel best describes your situation, your frustration, and yes, even your anger and have her read them. Then tell her what you want and ask her what she can do to help you overcome this. Not "anything" but specifics and be prepared to hear your own sins laid bare, real or imagined, that she's been coping with.

Frankly, I feel the relationship is beyond help. You're too bitter and angry to want intimacy without pressuring her for sex and (granted, we're only getting one side of the story) she's dug in and is either totally uninterested or harboring her own anger and bitterness. Until you both can let go and work on friendship without the bitterness and the strings attached (she should not have to second guess a hug or kiss...."is this hug because he loves me or because he wants sex?"), then it's hopeless.

Tell her what you need. Tell her what you think she could do to help. Ask her what she's willing to do. Then believe her, or not, that she will do this and go from there. The anger and bitterness, however, will need to be shed or it will continue to eat at you and destroy any advances made.

 

[footlongish]

"But there is a huge part of me, the part of me where my soul lives, if that makes sense, that he has never been able to reach. Or maybe it's that I've never been able to share with him. I don't know anymore. And sex is one of the things I no longer wish to share with him. Do you have any idea how bizarre (it's the only word that fits, believe me) it is to look at the man you used to share intimacies with and feel nothing but distaste?"

I would love to know why you feel distaste to him, because maybe my wife feels the same way about me. It would really help me to know why she can't be intimate with me. Is it something I am doing ? Does she not find me attractive ? What is it ?

I know exactly what it feels like to get to the point where you can't share sex. I shut down 10 months ago and we haven't had any since. Its an extremely hollow, empty feeling. Just vast nothingness. Just the most cruel, devastatingly painful thing you can possibly imagine. And it doesn't seem to go away with time.

 

[SusanneS]

It would really help me to know why she can't be intimate with me. Is it something I am doing ? Does she not find me attractive ? What is it ?

In my case it was who he was, his personality, not what he done. Not something that can be changed.

 

[footlongish]

...she should not have to second guess a hug or kiss...."is this hug because he loves me or because he wants sex?

I hear this all the time and OK, I understand it superficially. She doesn't want to be pressured to have sex. OK.

But can we look at that another way ? A man kisses his wife because he wants to have sex. He loves her and he wants to be intimate with her. What the hell is wrong with that ?

I had one gf that used to "jump me" with her needs regularly. Get home from playing a full 90 minutes of soccer. Totally wiped. She is horny. I put out. I loved it. Isn't that love ?

Did I feel pressured ? Yep. Her kisses said "I need it NOW". She probably would have been mad at me if I said no. Maybe not, but who likes to hear "No" ? But I loved her and I would do just about anything to make her happy, so if I had to get it up and give her a good workout, I'm happy to do it.

So the bastard husband feels horny and lonely and kisses his wife sending the signal he wants sex. Shoot the bugger ! What the hell is he thinking going to his wife with those needs ? Its much better that he buries them and knows that his needs are not to be communicated in the relationship for fear that they put pressure on the woman.

I was burying my needs all the time. Is she tired ? We've got company coming over, so I won't bother her. The house needs cleaning, so we'll do that first. We need to do some shopping. She is not in the mood in the morning, so I won't bother her. She is not in the mood in the middle of the night. She has to work tomorrow. We will wake up the in laws. She doesn't like that position.

Pretty soon you start denying that you have a need for sex at all.

 

[footlongish]

"In my case it was who he was, his personality, not what he done. Not something that can be changed."

Could you be more specific either publically or privately ? You disliked something about his personality ? He was too loud ? Too soft ? Obnoxious ? Overwhelming ?

 

[3113]

Okay I was once married so I can totally relate, but I was the one begging for it. Am I the only nympho over-sexed female in Australia? Why suddenly do all these wives not want to have sex?

There are so many reasons--and that's the problem, after all. If there was one, people could make a pill or go into a program to cure it. But given how many there are, it's hard to know exactly which one is affecting the woman and how to cure it, especially if she's not being open.

Among the possibilities:
1) The man may not try to pleasure her. It might be old faithful, he ruts and gets off and leaves her unfulfilled. Alternately, and frankly, the husband may not be a good lover, but the wife doesn't want to tell him that. So sex is boring and unsatisfying and she'd rather be reading.

I'll add that there are some women who still enter into marriage quite naive about sex--who have never had an orgasm or real sexual pleasure. If their husbands make little to no effort to find out what arouses them, then these women can go through years of marriage thinking sex isn't pleasant, just a chore. They're ignorant of the possiblities, and the husband, satified with the status quo or just unexperimental, may not have tried the one thing that will work on this particular woman. Like maybe she needs anal sex. Or maybe she needs to tie him up and take charge.

It's amazing how unaware people are not only of different fetishes, but of differences in the human body. They think people are all the same and what works on one will work on all. So a husband may assume that oral sex and then a missonary position works on all women, and he may give it his very best effort every time. But perhaps this woman needs her nipples pinched and to be taken from behind. We're all different.

We can blame the woman for not saying anything, but then, she may not know anything. She may be very unaware of her own needs and wants.

2) There may be chemical changes involved, hormones or depression. She just can't get aroused or horny. In this case, outside help is really needed. She's not trying to frustrate him, but she's miserable, trapped in her head and in her emotions and she can't escape it.

3) As mentioned, differences in sex drive. His may be naturally high, hers naturally low. And, as mentioned, she might start off by accomidating him in the early part of the relationship, maybe thinking he'll slow down or she'll speed up, and then when that doesn't happen she finally stops accomodating him.

Which, just to add, I think is one of the worst ways to go as it's dishonest on her part (or vice versa is the wife has the high sex drive and the husband's is low). A person needs to admit where their sex drive is to the partner and not to expect it (or their partner's) to change. To do so is to delude not only the partner, but one's self.

I'll add also that it must be far harder on a guy to have a woman he can't keep up with then for a woman to have a more sexual man. Men are, afterall, expected to be more sexual and women to passively accept that. It must really hit the manly ego to have a woman that makes him feel inadequate.

4) There may be a shit load of other problems in the marriage and the wife is displacing. She feels neglected or unloved, he doesn't listen to her or pay attention to her, he's being an asshole and refuses to see that. And however she's telling him (or not telling him) about the problems, he's not hearing it. So, in true passive-aggressive fashion, she punishes him and gets her point across by refusing sex.

This is a mutual problem. The husband has stopped listening to the wife, leaving her frustrated and confused, and so the wife communicates by withholding sex, but that way doesn't get the message across either, it just leaves the husband frustrated and confused. End result: two frustrated and confused people.

Again, professional help is needed--a mediator not necessarily a therapist to get both sides to listen. Possibly to get both sides to talk to each other as many women aren't aware the men aren't mind readers.

Those are just some of the most common possiblities and why it's a frequent problem on both sides. Finally and in the end, it's possible that these two people where never as compatable as they thought, and I don't mean sexually as that can be worked around. I mean emotionally, mentally, etc. Sometimes, we just marry the wrong person. Alternately, sometimes we marry the right person, but they change radically over time and become the wrong person.

 

[SusanneS]

Could you be more specific either publically or privately ? You disliked something about his personality ? He was too loud ? Too soft ? Obnoxious ? Overwhelming ?

Too gentle, not clever enough, not imaginative enough, too clingy and needy, not independent enough. I guess that's most of it.

 

[Mazuri]

But can we look at that another way ? A man kisses his wife because he wants to have sex. He loves her and he wants to be intimate with her. What the hell is wrong with that ?

Because no one wants to be viewed as a sex object, a blow up doll, or a sperm depository. If she thinks all you're seeing is a screw toy, then yeah, I can imagine she's a bit turned off by that. A kiss can just be a kiss, because you love her and want to be intimate. Being intimate doesn't always mean sex. Sex doesn't always mean love.

 

[3113]

But can we look at that another way ? A man kisses his wife because he wants to have sex. He loves her and he wants to be intimate with her. What the hell is wrong with that ?

I understand your frustration, but here's something you're not understanding (nor is SHE for that matter): How the chemicals work.

This is VERY generally speaking (because we're all different), but a woman feels intimacy with a man over a long period. That is, she talks with him, they spend time together, they have a romantic dinner, kiss and cuddle...etc. The "intimacy chemical" (honestly, it's there and it's real, I just can't recall the name) builds over this time and she feels close to the man. Very close. During sex and at climax this chemical goes higher in her, but not that much higher.

This relates back to Mazuri's "toy" observation. It's why a lot of women want candy and flowers and talk before sex and why sex alone doesn't make them feel intimate with the guy. Their "intimacy" chemical needs other stimulation. Once they feel close, then they feel like sex.

A man, however, only gets high levels of this chemical at climax. This is why most men feel closer to a woman during and after sex. This is when they feel the most intimate with them.

This is NOT to say that men don't feel close to their partners while on the couch cuddling or laughing over dinner. Just that they feel that drive to have sex in part because it creates the MOST intense feelings of intimacy in them. And if they love a woman, they certainly want that.

It's the whole Venus/Mars thing. Sex isn't just gradification for a man, it's his way of showing love and feeling intimate. Yes, SOME men just want to get their rocks off, but to a lot of men, sex is their way of getting closer to a woman. And both partners have to understand this.

 

[footlongish]

"A person needs to admit where their sex drive is to the partner and not to expect it (or their partner's) to change. To do so is to delude not only the partner, but one's self."

Well, my wife told me she has low sex drive. So I guess we are going to divorce.

And one of the questions I am going to ask on all my first dates is "How often do you masturbate ?".

I am going to get very real about my sexual needs in ever relationship I am in from now on.

 

[Sarojaede]

that, my dear friend, feeds my soul.

ed

it's still mostly me doing all the work, silver, but at least now, he actually turns and looks at me when i'm talking to him and acknowledges things i say.

 

[silverwhisper]

progress isn't made by quantum leaps. you know that.

ed

 

[Malaria]

ummm, very few things make me feel closer to my lover than sex or sexual acts. I know it's not the same for everyone but 3113, you do seem not only to be making very sweeping generalisations but really villainising footlongish for having desires he can't act on. He has obviously tried to hold his marriage together for a long time. Why do you keep jumping in and defending the actions of a wife who just seems to be against sex for no real reason? Do you not think he feels bad enough about the course of action he must now take? Whats wrong with support or is this a twisted sisters stick together thing?

 

[footlongish]

Because no one wants to be viewed as a sex object, a blow up doll, or a sperm depository. If she thinks all you're seeing is a screw toy, then yeah, I can imagine she's a bit turned off by that. A kiss can just be a kiss, because you love her and want to be intimate. Being intimate doesn't always mean sex. Sex doesn't always mean love.

You know what ? I'll bet you that when it comes right down to it that most men (80%) don't want to have sex, they want to make love. If we just want sex we can rent a prostitute or watch porn or cheat. Men want intimate love with their wives. Often. Frequently. They want to be held. They want to be told they are good lovers. They want a loving blowjob. Is there anything that says "I love you, stud", like getting a loving blowjob from your wife ?

My wife is, frankly, beautiful. I love her to death. If I had my way I would make love to her at least once a day. Sometimes tenderly. Sometimes passionately. Always with love. But I shouldn't because she will feel pressured. To me making love is the most intimate expression of love. And yes, it feels good. Should I feel guilty about that ? It feels good. Damn, am I ever a bastard !

I LOVE MY WIFE AND I FEEL GOOD WHEN I MAKE LOVE TO HER. I WANT HER TO FEEL GOOD. Does that make me a filthy pig ? What the hell is the purpose of marriage if that isn't it ? I don't need her financially. I can have a surrogate mother bear the children and a nanny look after them.

I need a wife because I am a man and I need to be nurtured and held and I need someone to share my love with intimately.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I for one maintain the view that there is a double standard about sex and marriage. When men refuse, it's because they are just jerks or whatever. When women do, it's because they are misunderstood and mistreated. Therefore, by that logic, it's okay for women to use sex as a weapon, but not men. You might deny that there is such a double standard, but I believe it to be real. I have noticed it quite a bit, particularly in Hollywood.

Just like the unfaithful wife is usually portrayed as the victim, but the unfaithful husband as the villain.

And I maintain that there is often a vicious cycle. No sex leads to no affection or vice versa, which leads to no sex and no affection. And so forth.

 

[footlongish]

This is a great discussion, people. Much better than several sessions with a counselor at $100 a shot.

 

[Malaria]

double standards like those sicken me. like saying women are incapable of rape because the man has to be willing in order for sex to be viable...rubbish.
maybe some people (men AND women) put more emphasis on sex as meaning love. why is this so wrong? some people need to be told that you love them every 10 minutes but thats not so bad is it? not as bad as craving intimacy