Sexless Marriage

[SEVERUSMAX]

double standards like those sicken me. like saying women are incapable of rape because the man has to be willing in order for sex to be viable...rubbish.
maybe some people (men AND women) put more emphasis on sex as meaning love. why is this so wrong? some people need to be told that you love them every 10 minutes but thats not so bad is it? not as bad as craving intimacy

Yep. Weird. Then again, I am a hard-ass (with a few soft spots, but still a hard ass). I don't buy into male-bashing tripe, like what shows up on Lifetime TV and shit like that. Both sexes have the same rights and duties. And both have the right to escape the clutches of monogamy. I have escaped it, and I don't regret that for a second. I'm a happy swinger. The alternative, for me at least, would be life as either a polygamist (would work, but not with my gf, and I love her too much to push for it) or a very frustrated life as a monogamous man. No thanks on the latter. I will compromise for love, but I won't capitulate.

 

[Malaria]

the female/victim male/villain is too ingrained into us. just watch an old silent movie!!! all the empowerment of women won't change it because it's not to our advantage. We don't want to be seen as villains and even the most hardened feminist will defend her actions in a victim way.

 

[Sarojaede]

progress isn't made by quantum leaps. you know that.

ed

I know that, but 8 years is painfully slow when it comes to progress.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

the female/victim male/villain is too ingrained into us. just watch an old silent movie!!! all the empowerment of women won't change it because it's not to our advantage. We don't want to be seen as villains and even the most hardened feminist will defend her actions in a victim way.

Probably true. Somehow, most feminist themes seem to be how men have victimized women for centuries, etc. Never mind that those men and women are both dead. This is a new generation, not guilty of the oppression of the past.

Oh, well, I'll live. I'm just glad that some women are willing to consider us men human beings instead of demons. It's a start.

 

[3113]

ummm, very few things make me feel closer to my lover than sex or sexual acts. I know it's not the same for everyone but 3113, you do seem not only to be making very sweeping generalisations

No. I'm stating facts. Check out this site:

Male Sexual Chemicals

To quote from that:

Oxytocin
What it does: Secreted by the pituitary gland, oxytocin stimulates the prostate, causes muscle contractions and sensitizes nerves. Research has shown that increased oxytocin produces more intense orgasms.

How it makes you feel: Oxytocin is known as the "cuddling hormone" because it causes you to feel a connection and bond with your lover.

Here's a little more on the subject:

Female hormones make the woman's brain better wired for Iong-term romantic activity than the man's. Nowhere do we see this more clearly than in oxytocin activity in the hypothalamus. Male oxytocin (bonding chemical) levels are lower than in females. In many men, they can be ten times lower. Just as testosterone levels are much higher in males, oxytocin levels are generally higher in females.

However, there is one time of the day when the male oxytocin levels approach the normal female levels - during sexual orgasm. When a man ejaculates, his oxytocin level shoots up to the levels that females experience during other times of the day. When a man ejaculates, he bonds utterly with her.

That's from What He's Thinking

Oxytocin levels vary in women and in men, so yes, I was making a generalization, but I was not making one that has no basis or support in science and facts.

but really villainising footlongish for having desires he can't act on.

If you think that then you either really misread what I wrote, or I didn't write it in a way that allowed you to understand what I meant.

To the contrary, I'm telling Foot that his WIFE needs to understand that he's not just getting his rocks off when he asks for sex. That when he makes love to her he's trying to be close to her, intimate and show his love.

That's what HE keeps saying. "I LOVE MY WIFE AND I FEEL GOOD WHEN I MAKE LOVE TO HER."

Is this not EXACTLY what I just pointed out?

But if SHE doesn't understand that, then SHE is going to maintain the myth that he's just trying to pleasure HIMSELF, not get close to her.

So far, I rather think I'm on HIS side, not hers.

 

[Malaria]

Probably true. Somehow, most feminist themes seem to be how men have victimized women for centuries, etc. Never mind that those men and women are both dead. This is a new generation, not guilty of the oppression of the past.

Oh, well, I'll live. I'm just glad that some women are willing to consider us men human beings instead of demons. It's a start.

hee hee, no problem! some of us are truly progressive!

 

[SusanneS]

But if SHE doesn't understand that, then SHE is going to maintain the myth that he's just trying to pleasure HIMSELF, not get close to her.

And you presume that she wants to be closer to him, because that's what all the women want, right?
Not all.

 

[Mazuri]

I'm not a rabid feminist and can only go by what is being posted. Most of what I'm reading sounds like ego propping, not love. I don't need to shower my husband with praise or gratitude for having sex with me, like it's a privilege to share his bed, for him to know I enjoy it and him. It's neither a privilege nor a right nor a duty of marriage. If it's ever seen as any of those, then it would truly be time to move on.

 

[3113]

And you presume that she wants to be closer to him, because that's what all the women want, right?
Not all.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I haven't put them into yours, have I?

I don't know what she wants. She hasn't posted her feeling or the facts on the situation as she sees them.

I presume ONLY that she may not understand that Foot's desire for sex is a desire for intimacy rather than pleasure. And I presume this ONLY because of what Foot has said about her.

I presume nothing more.

 

[3113]

Probably true. Somehow, most feminist themes seem to be how men have victimized women for centuries, etc. Never mind that those men and women are both dead. This is a new generation, not guilty of the oppression of the past.

Sev, Dude, you know I love you, and your argument may have merit...but FYI, you may not be the best advocate for it:

*A man who glories in a past empire to the point where he takes on the name "Servusmax"? So...you can hold up the past as an example but those darn feministists should put it to rest? Certainly, there are plenty of women who want to make present men pay for the sins of past men, but there are also those who point to the past as a way of presenting evidence that men (as a gender) tend to do certain things over and over again, no matter if they're living in the Roman Empire or 21st Century America. And that does have some validity.

*A man who erotically enjoys a master/slave relationship where the man gets to b the master. Granted, it's a relationship freely entered and enjoyed by both sides, but it does make your protestations against themes of men victimizing women a little...suspect?

Now, I'm not one for ad hominen arguments--attacking the arguer rather than the argument--but in a discussion, one does have to consider the source. Rather like the Pope arguing against Birth Control. He might have a point...but he's not the most unbias advocate.

Of course, you've written a ton of stories and I haven't read them all. Maybe if you could point me toward a few of your feminist tales? Ones where the woman is the hero and saves the guy? Those would certainly argue well for your objectivity.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Sev, Dude, you know I love you, and your argument may have merit...but FYI, you may not be the best advocate for it:

*A man who glories in a past empire to the point where he takes on the name "Servusmax"? So...you can hold up the past as an example but those darn feministists should put it to rest? Certainly, there are plenty of women who want to make present men pay for the sins of past men, but there are also those who point to the past as a way of presenting evidence that men (as a gender) tend to do certain things over and over again, no matter if they're living in the Roman Empire or 21st Century America. And that does have some validity.

*A man who erotically enjoys a master/slave relationship where the man gets to b the master. Granted, it's a relationship freely entered and enjoyed by both sides, but it does make your protestations against themes of men victimizing women a little...suspect?

Now, I'm not one for ad hominen arguments--attacking the arguer rather than the argument--but in a discussion, one does have to consider the source. Rather like the Pope arguing against Birth Control. He might have a point...but he's not the most unbias advocate.

Of course, you've written a ton of stories and I haven't read them all. Maybe if you could point me toward a few of your feminist tales? Ones where the woman is the hero and saves the guy? Those would certainly argue well for your objectivity.

So, because I am a pagan Dom with a heavy Neo-Classical bent, I should shut up and just let women trash my sex? I don't think so. Nope, "biased" messenger that I am, my message is still right. I don't know about other men. But just because some men still do abusive shit doesn't mean that ALL do. Most of that is in the past. I maintain my view that it's a double standard in many cases.

I'm no fan of radical feminism, for reasons that I have mentioned. I am also no enemy of individual rights for women, just as I favor them for men. Some of those rights include the right to enter into a D/s relationship if they see fit. It's their body, right? Isn't that the principal argument for abortion rights, for instance? Not that I am going into that minefield. But, by that same logic, they have the personal freedom to choose to be "slaves", don't they? Same with men (I don't object to men voluntarily assuming a submissive role, if that is their wish).

Feminist tales? I'm not sure what, if any, of my stories could be deemed feminist. But they do tend to favor individualism for BOTH sexes. Which, to me, does a lot more for freedom and equality for either sex than a million marches, protests, or Lifetime movies.

 

[midwestyankee]

-----

You know, bg, sometimes you say more with fewer words than anyone else I know.

 

[footlongish]

"Most of what I'm reading sounds like ego propping, not love."

Well forgive me for wanting my ego stroked !

What does my wife want when she asks if she looks fat in an outfit ? Reassurance and confirmation, but probably her ego stroked. And we all know how that goes if it isn't stroked just right.

But if a man asks a woman to stroke his ego, well that is just terrible because then the woman would have to admit that man did something nice for her or did something worthy of praise. And we all know that men are selfish, self centered pigs, not a loving bone in their body. They only want a place to "deposit" their sperm.

My wife has a really hard time giving me a compliment. Other people do it frequently. But not my wife.

 

[Slightly AsQ]

OK, here is a curve ball for everyone.

In a week or so, I am going to have the big discussion with my wife that says I am out of here for good. And I still love this woman. And I know that she will plead with me not to go. The exact words will be something along the line of "I will do **ANYTHING**" to make this work."

OK, so if that is really the case, that she will do **ANYTHING**, then this situation should be fixable, right ?

So here is the question. When she says **ANYTHING**, what do I say ? I mean, how does one get the woman he loves to be sexually loving to him when she isn't ?

That is the part I don't understand. We got married in the Catholic church and did our vows, you know the whole "love and cherish through sickness and in health, rich or poor, till death do us part" stuff.

Well, isn't lovemaking and being intimate with your partner part of the "love" part of the vows ? And she took those vows of her own free will. So why am I not getting loved ? She changed her mind ? So much for taking vows !

Part of the problem was our intimacy was broken before we got married. Maybe she thought what we had was going to be it for intimacy. But shouldn't one expect a relationship to grow over time ? I guess maybe I take relationships more seriously than other people do.

I really relate to your problem. My wife sounds a lot like yours and I've had these same thoughts and frustrations many, many times. (We are also both Catholic and got married in a Catholic service.) I don't even like to think about the discussions and arguments that we have had on this issue over the last 23 years. I can't say our marriage has been "sexless" but our incompatability in the bedroom as alway been our number one problem. (Or, should I say that its 'MY" number one problem, because that is what my wife has told me.)

Anyway, I don't have to tell you that all these well-meaning suggestions to improve the situation are worthless because they don't go to the root of the problem which is how your wife views sex. That is probably too ingrained in her at this point to hope that it will change significantly.

Also, I hope I don't have to tell you not to listen to the people that are trying to place the blame on you. It's not your fault!

Your decision is a hard one. I know because I've been there. Personally, I decided that finding a woman who is more sexually compatible to me was not worth the pain and disruption in my life that a divorce would cause, so I'm still in the marriage. It is not the marriage that I expected. I have stopped being the caring husband that I was. My sex drive for my wife is way down and shrinking all the time and I know that its only going to get worse. But I still think that I am making the right choice. That is for now at least because my decision is an on-going one. I ask it again, each time I have a new frustration.

Good luck! I hope your choice works out as best as possible for you.

 

[Mazuri]

"Most of what I'm reading sounds like ego propping, not love."

Well forgive me for wanting my ego stroked !

What does my wife want when she asks if she looks fat in an outfit ? Reassurance and confirmation, but probably her ego stroked. And we all know how that goes if it isn't stroked just right.

But if a man asks a woman to stroke his ego, well that is just terrible because then the woman would have to admit that man did something nice for her or did something worthy of praise. And we all know that men are selfish, self centered pigs, not a loving bone in their body. They only want a place to "deposit" their sperm.

My wife has a really hard time giving me a compliment. Other people do it frequently. But not my wife.

It is plain that your bitterness and your anger will overrule any chance you may have had. You have no interest in making your marriage work for you as a couple, only you as an individual. You have no interest in her needs or wants, only your own selfish ones.

It will be a grand ego boost to be able to say you left the dead weight behind. Now whether I'm saying it to you or to her is up for interpretation.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

It is plain that your bitterness and your anger will overrule any chance you may have had. You have no interest in making your marriage work for you as a couple, only you as an individual. You have no interest in her needs or wants, only your own selfish ones.

It will be a grand ego boost to be able to say you left the dead weight behind. Now whether I'm saying it to you or to her is up for interpretation.

It is plain to me that you're not grasping WHY he has reason to be bitter. You only see her selfish desires as valid. So, apparently, only women are entitled to be selfish, from what you said. This is the aforementioned double standard of which I wrote earlier.

It sounds like he has sacrificed and tried a great deal to accomodate her, only to be rebuffed repeatedly. Nothing that they can do will change their fundamental incompatibility. If you think that people should stay in miserable, toxic marriages that frustrate them and put them one foot in the grave, that's your right to believe so. However, I think that he is better off with someone who WANTS to give him what he wants to give her. An actual give and take, instead of TAKE, TAKE, TAKE, which is what she seems to be doing.

 

[Flyin_Free]

I would love to know why you feel distaste to him, because maybe my wife feels the same way about me. It would really help me to know why she can't be intimate with me. Is it something I am doing ? Does she not find me attractive ? What is it ?

I know exactly what it feels like to get to the point where you can't share sex. I shut down 10 months ago and we haven't had any since. Its an extremely hollow, empty feeling. Just vast nothingness. Just the most cruel, devastatingly painful thing you can possibly imagine. And it doesn't seem to go away with time.

This wasn't my post but I'm going to try to answer from my situation anyway. By the end of my relationship my husband and I basically weren't having sex at all. Thinking back I bet it was no more than 4 times in the last year. This was because I didn't want to. He would touch me and I would cringe, literally cringe. I just wanted it over with and done with. Why? I did still love him......but he had hurt me soo many times over and over again for so long that I had just shut down part of me to him. How could he hurt me emotionally during the day and expect me to want to have sex with him at night? I still "loved" him (or at least part of me did--how can you NOT love somebody you've been with for 16 years) but it was much more of a platonic love. I still wanted to be married to him.....at least I think I did...or maybe it was just my inground belief that "marriage is forever" No matter what it was I know that I still wanted to be married, I just couldn't bring myself to want him to touch me anymore.

I'm not saying that's the case with your wife, but that was the case with me.

And it also wasn't because I have no sex drive, because I know I do. With somebody who loves me and I'm emotionally connected with I could have a huge sex drive. I just couldn't with him anymore, and to be honest, by the end....even if he'd changed, I'm still not sure I could've gotten my desire back for him....it would've taken a LOT of breaking down walls by that point.

 

[Mazuri]

It is plain to me that you're not grasping WHY he has reason to be bitter. You only see her selfish desires as valid. So, apparently, only women are entitled to be selfish, from what you said. This is the aforementioned double standard of which I wrote earlier.

I'm sure he has reasons to be bitter, however....

* he admitted this was the way things were when they married 14 years ago, why wait until now to bitch?
* we only have his word of how things really are and, since no one is every completely wrong or completely right, I have trouble believing he's done everything perfectly while she's done everything wrong
* he has totally discounted her desires as valid therefore someone needs to show both sides.

There is no double standard. When my own marriage was in very much this position, most of the issues were mine. However, it took both my husband and I together to see that and to begin the rebuilding. He didn't take a holier than thou, put me on a pedastal attitude, nor did I prostrate myself at his feet in humiliation. We worked through it together compromising as needed.

I see no compromise here (this is what I want, and damn the consequences!) and therefore I see no future for them as a couple.

*shrugs* I'd feel the same if it had been a woman posting the same things. No one person is ever 100% responsible for a marriage dissolving.

 

[SesameStreet]

I had one gf that used to "jump me" with her needs regularly. Get home from playing a full 90 minutes of soccer. Totally wiped. She is horny. I put out. I loved it. Isn't that love ?

Did I feel pressured ? Yep. Her kisses said "I need it NOW". She probably would have been mad at me if I said no. Maybe not, but who likes to hear "No" ? But I loved her and I would do just about anything to make her happy, so if I had to get it up and give her a good workout, I'm happy to do it.
.

Sounds like you should have married her.

 

[SweetErika]

I see no compromise here (this is what I want, and damn the consequences!) and therefore I see no future for them as a couple.

In the interest of sharing/discussion (not criticizing are arguing with you, Mazuri )....

I haven't interpreted foot's posts as, "this is what I want, and damn the consequences," but rather, "this is what I've decided I need to be happy, and I don't see getting them from this person/relationship, so I'm moving on even though that's a really painful step."

I get the impression he really wanted it to work, and has made a lot of steps in the interest of that goal (counseling, researching the things that make marriage successful and inviting his wife to work on it together, trying to communicate and be a better spouse), but has come to the conclusion they're not a good match and the kind of compromise it'd require wouldn't make either of them happy. He's said he's struggled with this decision for many years because he's very aware of the cons of leaving the relationship.

I can't say I'd do any differently in the situation he's described, apart from maybe getting out sooner. If that makes me selfish or a bad person, so be it; I'm responsible for my own happiness, and sometimes have to make painful decisions to preserve/restore that. I'll try really hard and consider very carefully, but I won't compromise myself in the end, and that's the bottom line.

 

[footlongish]

I really relate to your problem. My wife sounds a lot like yours and I've had these same thoughts and frustrations many, many times. (We are also both Catholic and got married in a Catholic service.) I don't even like to think about the discussions and arguments that we have had on this issue over the last 23 years. I can't say our marriage has been "sexless" but our incompatability in the bedroom as alway been our number one problem. (Or, should I say that its 'MY" number one problem, because that is what my wife has told me.)

Wow. Thank you for sharing that. You are 10 years further into this than I am.

Anyway, I don't have to tell you that all these well-meaning suggestions to improve the situation are worthless because they don't go to the root of the problem which is how your wife views sex. That is probably too ingrained in her at this point to hope that it will change significantly.

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

Also, I hope I don't have to tell you not to listen to the people that are trying to place the blame on you. It's not your fault!

I'm not saying it is or it isn't. I've kind of run out of ways of trying.

Your decision is a hard one. I know because I've been there. Personally, I decided that finding a woman who is more sexually compatible to me was not worth the pain and disruption in my life that a divorce would cause, so I'm still in the marriage.

Now THAT is a mouthful ! So you have basically suppressed your needs to make the relationship work. Aren't you angry ? Aren't you lonely ?

It is not the marriage that I expected. I have stopped being the caring husband that I was.

The more I have this discussion with people, the more I get the feeling that the guys who have this problem are the givers. I don't know if its the givers that turn the women away for some reason or if its only the givers that desire the closeness and that frightens women or if its only the givers that bother to stay, ie the non givers are smarter and they leave.

Am I off base here ?

My sex drive for my wife is way down and shrinking all the time and I know that its only going to get worse. But I still think that I am making the right choice. That is for now at least because my decision is an on-going one. I ask it again, each time I have a new frustration.

So is it only a matter of time until you leave, if it is an on going decision ? I mean if you re evaluate periodically, it is only a matter of time before you say "I'm leaving" ?

What does your wife say when you discuss this ? Don't you get angry with her ?

 

[3113]

So, because I am a pagan Dom with a heavy Neo-Classical bent, I should shut up and just let women trash my sex?

No. Because you're a Dom with a heavy Neo-Classical bent your objections to women who have valid or invalid arguments against male dominance are suspect. Did you expect otherwise? You haven't been dominated and you admire a western civilization that was all about dominance, including male power.

I'm an athist who was raised in a household that was pretty non-religious. I have objections to organized religion. My arguments would be suspect, however, as compared to yours--your background giving you better information than my non-organized religion background to argue such a topic.

And that's all I meant.

Chill, okay?

As for male bashing...please. Boo-hoo, poor men. They still rule the world, they still dominate sexually in most countries. They still run more corporations and countries. It is mostly men who decide which movies get made, which science papers get published, what news stories go out. Men still dominate the Supreme Court which decides U.S. Laws. All generals of all armies on earth are, I believe, male, so if there's a war it's usually men running it. All the dictators on earth are currently male. Men have the vast majority of the wealth and power and weapons in this world, and the slave trade they run--with REAL slaves--is mostly a trade in women.

How much sobbing do you want me to do over men who feel their gender is being slandered on <i>Lifetime</i> television which, lets face it, is a third-rate channel preaching to the converted? Forgive me if I can't get as outraged as you over a few bad, anti-male movies with has-been actresses. When they begin to have some world-wide influence, I'll come to your rescue.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

No. Because you're a Dom with a heavy Neo-Classical bent your objections to women who have valid or invalid arguments against male dominance are suspect. Did you expect otherwise? You haven't been dominated and you admire a western civilization that was all about dominance, including male power.

I'm an athist who was raised in a household that was pretty non-religious. I have objections to organized religion. My arguments would be suspect, however, as compared to yours--your background giving you better information than my non-organized religion background to argue such a topic.

And that's all I meant.

Chill, okay?

As for male bashing...please. Boo-hoo, poor men. They still rule the world, they still dominate sexually in most countries. They still run more corporations and countries. It is mostly men who decide which movies get made, which science papers get published, what news stories go out. Men still dominate the Supreme Court which decides U.S. Laws. All generals of all armies on earth are, I believe, male, so if there's a war it's usually men running it. All the dictators on earth are currently male. Men have the vast majority of the wealth and power and weapons in this world, and the slave trade they run--with REAL slaves--is mostly a trade in women.

How much sobbing do you want me to do over men who feel their gender is being slandered on <i>Lifetime</i> television which, lets face it, is a third-rate channel preaching to the converted? Forgive me if I can't get as outraged as you over a few bad, anti-male movies with has-been actresses. When they begin to have some world-wide influence, I'll come to your rescue.

I understand how you see it that way. For the record, I do NOT argue for a dominant gender in society, male or female. I am an individualist. The sexes themselves are equal in value, but if a man or woman wishes to dominate, and another man or woman wishes to submit in their private lives, I deem that to be their own business.

Again, I know why you see it that way. However, despite the prevalence of men in society, I don't see most of those men using that power to oppress women. Not that I can tell. Don't forget that it was men who voted to ratify the 19th Amendment, which gave women the vote. Hardly the act of an oppressive, domineering minority.

Btw, there have been female dictators: Sirimavo Bandaranaike in Sri Lanka and Indira Gandhi in India. Just a point. Admittedly dead and in the past, but it has happened. Catherine the Great, Cleopatra VII, and Empress Theodora of the Byzantine Empire are all female rulers for I have no great admiration (on the other hand, Elizabeth I is a long-time historical favorite of mine). Again, dead and in the past. But very much powerful women with a mark on history.

Yes, I admire much about ancient Greece and Rome. That doesn't mean that I am trying to restore the misogynistic aspects of their society, any more than I would try to restore chattel slavery. I do not credit myself based on their virtues, nor would I wish to blamed for their crimes.

I do not expect that you would share my outrage over male-bashing. But you shouldn't be surprised that I feel it. A Protestant might not fully experience or understand a Catholic's outrage at anti-Catholicism, but he shouldn't be surprised that the Catholic feels it. Some of that is very personal. That's just the nature of the beast.

Hope that explains how I feel on this matter better.

 

[Fuckmegently]

Jesus....
Find somebody else to fuck and be done with it....

Or...

You could do what we did....

I broke the ice one particularly loveless evening by talking about how this chick at work kept hitting on me. After talking about that for awhile and noting my wife's reactions...both physical and verbal, I cracked a "joke" about inviting the girl back to our place for the evening. I was surprised to find that, other than the fact that I worked with the girl, my wife wasn't all that turned off by the idea. In fact, after a bit of subtle coaxing, she turned the tables by saying "Perhaps we should have another guy over"!
And I was surprised to find out that she had just the guy in mind.

We went out to a bar about a month later with no preconceptions about what might happen, but out of nowhere this girl started hitting on my wife.
Well we left without the girl and went upstairs (hotel) and laughed at what had just went on. She hopped in the shower and I decided to take a chance. I went down and found the girl, took her upstairs and was on the bed with her when my wife got out of the shower. There was a moment of stunned silence and then my wife said...

"Well it fucking well took you long enough!"

From that moment on, our sex life...by ourselves and with others, has been phenomenal. I suggest you explore yourselves and your desires.

And if all else fails...find somebody else to fuck!

 

[akatrex]

Wow. Thank you for sharing that. You are 10 years further into this than I am.



I think you hit the nail on the head there.



I'm not saying it is or it isn't. I've kind of run out of ways of trying.



Now THAT is a mouthful ! So you have basically suppressed your needs to make the relationship work. Aren't you angry ? Aren't you lonely ?




The more I have this discussion with people, the more I get the feeling that the guys who have this problem are the givers. I don't know if its the givers that turn the women away for some reason or if its only the givers that desire the closeness and that frightens women or if its only the givers that bother to stay, ie the non givers are smarter and they leave.

Am I off base here ?



So is it only a matter of time until you leave, if it is an on going decision ? I mean if you re evaluate periodically, it is only a matter of time before you say "I'm leaving" ?

What does your wife say when you discuss this ? Don't you get angry with her ?

That would be me. I am a Big Time Giver.

The sad part is that she has now driven the sex drive out of me. Men are dogs, but when told no and no and no again (smacked with the newspaper) after awhile you just give up. I would rather go to the gym in the morning rather than wait for the intimacy that will never come.

I work full time, bring the majority of the income, do all the shopping and cooking, educated myself on the pleasuring of women. It was all great in the first few years. Then the downward spiral begins. I keep myself in great shape, eat well and am a gentelman. I am learning fast that nice guys finish last.

I'll have to get my application into Club Med soon.