The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[intothewoods]

I was speaking of public 'parties'.

I was unaware this was happening at private ones as well.

What is the difference to you between a private and public party? A hotel vs. private home?

If the event is sponsored by a group, admission will be charged to cover the costs. At our group, the costs are providing condoms and other safer sex materials, sodas and water, food, decorations and then sometimes a cleaning service for after the party.

Other groups are different. Black Rose is an old group in DC. They charge membership fees - those fees go to pay for weekly classes that are free or low cost to the community. The classes are on a wide range of topics, similar to what Syd described earlier in this thread.

Here is a website that has an example of party rules: http://www.evilmonk.org/a/rules.cfm

Here is a wikipedia link on the same topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Play_party_(BDSM)

 

[BLoved]

I'm saying you are being intentionally obtuse and inflamatory. Again.

CM, why bother?

Have you not made your opinion of me known often enough that you no longer feel the need to jump in and say it again?

Whether I am playing the devil's advocate or not is hardly the point. The questions I ask are still valid.

I still think your aversion to the word "love" is a symptom of a dysfunctional attitude towards love. Disagree if you wish, but statements like the one quoted only affirms my predictions.

You're still being immature.

Time to move on or grow up, don't you think?

 

[intothewoods]

Why is it immature for CM to say you are being inflammatory and obtuse? That's her opinion. Your opinion is that she has a dysfunctional attitude towards love. You're both free to express yourselves.

We all evidently have quite different ideas of decorum and maturity on this thread. I would be more sympathetic to your position if you weren't writing ~smile~ after each insult.

 

[CutieMouse]

Time to move on or grow up, don't you think?

Interesting... you've been running about whining about the persecution and censorship you've experienced here and elsewhere, yet the bit I just quoted there sounds suspiciously like you just invited me to shut the hell up. Meaning you are trying to censor my opinion of your statements.

 

[BLoved]

What is the difference to you between a private and public party? A hotel vs. private home?

I have to admit, if money is being charged for private as well as public 'parties' then the distinction is becoming a little more blurred.

My understanding of the private 'party' was that it was held at a home, and there was no fee involved.

A public 'party' was held in a facility of some sort (warehouse, in my case ... seela speaks of restaurants) that charges a fee and allows anyone in off the street, no screening required.

If the event is sponsored by a group, admission will be charged to cover the costs. At our group, the costs are providing condoms and other safer sex materials, sodas and water, food, decorations and then sometimes a cleaning service for after the party.

Any party I've attended, and I mean the run-of-the-mill vanilla parties, was free.

We brought our own food and drink. If the host and hostess wanted to decorate, that was up to them. We tended to keep the place clean as the party unfolded: less to trip over and more counter space available, etc.

If I were the type of person to attend a private 'play party', I'd be bringing my own stuff.

As an aside, I do appreciate you mentioning condoms and "other safer sex materials". There has been some confusion over whether sex does or does not occur.

Other groups are different. Black Rose is an old group in DC. They charge membership fees - those fees go to pay for weekly classes that are free or low cost to the community. The classes are on a wide range of topics, similar to what Syd described earlier in this thread.

And where is this money going, exactly? Who ends up getting it?

Here is a website that has an example of party rules: http://www.evilmonk.org/a/rules.cfm

Here is a wikipedia link on the same topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Play_party_(BDSM)

Forgive me, but what people write on the net about how ethical they are doesn't mean much if they don't practise what they preach.

I prefer forums like this where people behave as they choose to behave, and we all get a more candid manifestation of who they really are.

We have many players and advocates from a variety of casual communities right here. I consider it a fair cross-section of the demographics.

 

[intothewoods]

Here is a list of rules from SF's Citadel (a bdsm club):

SF Citadel is a friendly and safe place to play. This is because we observe sensible rules. This is a list of SF Citadel house rules. These rules are subject to change at any time. Each guest is responsible for reading and abiding by the rules that are distributed at the play party. Note that sponsored parties may have their own rules.

The basic principle is: be responsible adults. Respect players during scenes, be sensible with your toys and those belonging to others, protect yourself (and others, if necessary), and respect the playing surfaces and the equipment. Our rules are strictly enforced by our dungeon monitors (DMs).

We reserve the right to refuse entrance to anyone or ask anyone to leave if he or she appears intoxicated, potentially harmful to himself or others, ignores dungeon rules, or engages in unsafe, exploitive or non-consensual behavior of any kind.

If you have any questions or concerns about these rules, how they are being observed, or how they are being enforced, speak to a dungeon monitor. SF Citadel DMs wear distinctive, identifying armbands while on duty.

Protect yourself and others

If you have questions or concerns, speak to the Hosts, Ambassadors, or the Dungeon Monitors (DMs). DMs wear an orange handkerchief tied around their arm. Ambassadors wear a black armband with a red heart on it.
No audio recording, videotaping, or photography inside. No cell phones beyond the locker area. Please silence your cell phones while they are in your locker.
Do not engage in any illegal activities in the SF Citadel. No drugs or alcohol inside.
Use of the word “safeword” is a call for assistance from outside your scene; the DMs & other experienced players will come to your aid when they hear it. Do not misuse or abuse this serious call for help.
Do not interrupt ongoing scenes. If you have safety or health concerns about a scene in progress, talk to a DM.
Respect the space. Clean up after your play (the SF Citadel provides alcohol & bleach sprays and paper towels) and help us keep the social area tidy. It is advisable to clean the slings both before and after you play.
Barrier protection is mandatory for anal sex, vaginal sex, fisting, rimming, and any sort of blood play. It is highly recommended for oral sex, penetrative toys, and any potential exposure to body fluids. The SF Citadel provides condoms, plastic wrap, lube, and gloves.
Water only (no food or other drink) in the downstairs play spaces.
Do not touch another person or their property without their permission.
NO MEANS NO! Aggressive cruising will not be tolerated. If you feel someone is bothering you and doesn’t respect your wishes, let the DM or hosts know ASAP.
Urine, scat, fire, and breath control play are not permitted.
Get permission from the DM before beginning any singletail whip, takedown, loud, unusual, disruptive, or potentially messy play scenes.
Get permission from the DMs and cover the carpeting before any sort of blood play or wax play. Please cover the carpet under your slings. Bring your own tarps! (Big garbage bags work well.)
When doing wax play- no unattended flames. This means when you set a candle down, extinguish it. Keep all wax on your tarp (clean off before leaving it).
Help us keep the noise level down. No conversation in the lower level of the dungeon. Do not loudly crack (“go sonic” with) your singletail.
No locks are allowed on any cages. Cages must be openable with no keys or any other tools.
Do not sit or leave your toys on the play equipment. You cannot “reserve” equipment.
No wanking (masturbating when not in scene)!
We reserve the right to refuse entrance to anyone or ask anyone to leave.


Additionally, We'd like to provide some basic ettiquette for those who are not familiar with the BDSM Community. While these are not enforced rules as listed about, we strongly recommend heeding this advice to ensure you do not inadvertently offend someone because you didn't know.

We all like to think we are polite, well-mannered people. And while most of us are, there are always a few ill-tempered, rude, and/or obnoxious folk that will ruin a party or event for everyone else. Examples of this behavior are boorishness, obnoxiousness, trying to tell someone else how differently their scene should have been done, etc, or by attempting to "cruise" every person that walks by. The Citadel would like to remind everyone of a few certain rules of etiquette.

NO MEANS NO! If you ask someone to play and they say No, please do not press the issue further by trying to talk them out of their decision or pressure them further to play. Just politely honor their decision and move on. Try not to take any rejections as a personal attack. The person you just asked to play with may not be feeling well, or has had a rough day at work or is dealing with a personal situation that has nothing to do with you.
Never walk into a scene or attempt to talk to people in the middle of a scene. This is an excellent way of disrupting their concentration, not to mention having them get very angry with you.
No drinking or drugs on the premises. Anyone who shows up at a Citadel party obviously intoxicated or under the influence of any recreational drug will not be allowed entrance.
Drinks (except for water) and food, are not permitted in any area other than the kitchen and dining areas.
No cameras and/or video equipment are allowed at the Citadel during parties.
We also ask that out of respect for others that may be scening and/or just talking, any quarrels be taken outside.
To protect the anonymity of other members of our community, please refrain from "name dropping" or discussing the private affairs of any local or non-local SM organization.
We also suggest all attendees maintain a high standard of personal cleanliness and appearance.
Do not engage in any unlawful activity that would discredit The Citadel. This includes the use of drugs, bringing in a firearm, or allowing a minor on the premises.
Always show respect and understanding of any and all types of play going on at a Citadel party, as well as any personal attitudes and feelings of other Citadel attendees. You may not be comfortable for example with watching a knife play scene or hanging out in the same area with "leatherdykes" or "leathermen," but remember that any of them may have an equal discomfort with you being there.
Do not touch, pick up or play with anyone's toys or equipment at a Citadel party without having gotten permission first from their owner.

 

[intothewoods]

I have to admit, if money is being charged for private as well as public 'parties' then the distinction is becoming a little more blurred.

My understanding of the private 'party' was that it was held at a home, and there was no fee involved.

A public 'party' was held in a facility of some sort (warehouse, in my case ... seela speaks of restaurants) that charges a fee and allows anyone in off the street, no screening required.

I believe seela was referring to a munch, where no play is involved. I think we are on the same page as far as private parties go. It's just that some public parties are held at large houses. They are just smaller events than a hotel event.

Any party I've attended, and I mean the run-of-the-mill vanilla parties, was free.

We brought our own food and drink. If the host and hostess wanted to decorate, that was up to them. We tended to keep the place clean as the party unfolded: less to trip over and more counter space available, etc.

If I were the type of person to attend a private 'play party', I'd be bringing my own stuff.

As an aside, I do appreciate you mentioning condoms and "other safer sex materials". There has been some confusion over whether sex does or does not occur.

I can understand if you were confused. It depends on the group and the event. At Black Rose, my understanding is that sex is not allowed. At other groups, it is. I believe this is confirmed on the wikipedia. It depends on the group. Also, because it's allowed doesn't mean everyone participates.

And where is this money going, exactly? Who ends up getting it?

I'm not on the board, since I'm not that involved in the scene, but my understanding is that there is a group of volunteers who run things. They collect money, it goes in a safe, it's brought back out to pay for parties.

Forgive me, but what people write on the net about how ethical they are doesn't mean much if they don't practise what they preach.

I prefer forums like this where people behave as they choose to behave, and we all get a more candid manifestation of who they really are.

We have many players and advocates from a variety of casual communities right here. I consider it a fair cross-section of the demographics.

I feel the same about you. Some people here don't like you. That's not unethical. It's a choice. You post link after inapplicable link, so I figured you'd appreciate the same. It seems you don't practice what you preach in this instance either.

 

[BLoved]

Does the local membership only dungeon have a small entrance fee? Yes.

...

Do any of the free weekly groups take donations? Yes.

...

Do others pay an admission for the chance to seek permission to play with me. Absolutely not.

any play with another is negotiated in conjunction with my Mistress and Sir and I have the right and responsibility to say no if it doesn't please or appeal to me.

I'm ... not a selling point

May we assume that pleasing your Mistress and Sir is important to you?

 

[CutieMouse]

Any party I've attended, and I mean the run-of-the-mill vanilla parties, was free.

We brought our own food and drink. If the host and hostess wanted to decorate, that was up to them. We tended to keep the place clean as the party unfolded: less to trip over and more counter space available, etc.

Any "vanilla" party or event I've attended that was in any way attached to an organization has charged a fee to cover the expenses of said event.

In the past I was in charge of finding locations for monthly meeting for a 501c3 organization I was involved with, and can assure you that even "free" meeting rooms are not free. The business offering the space still has to cover the costs of electricity while the building is being used, worry about liability issues, etc. The people putting on the event have to worry about at least feeding/housing presenters, if not flat out paying them a fee for offering their time and expertise to the event. The organizers often end up putting in 3-4 times the amount of volunteer hours to pull off the monthly meeting/special event/whatever, as the attendees spend at the event - the volunteers also deserve compensation for their time and effort - be it in the form of donated gift cards, reimbursement for expenses incurred during planning and set up, or a plate of homemade cookies. The idea that a $5 or $10 cover charge to attend a demo means the bad bad organizers are gleefully raking in the big bucks is just silly.

A professionally run, clean, safe, orderly, legal, educational event costs more money to run than a neighborhood potluck. Given that you are worried about how dangerous these events could possibly be, I am having a hard time understanding why you can't seem to comprehend the expenses related to ensuring a safe, legal, orderly event.

 

[BLoved]

Interesting... you've been running about whining about the persecution and censorship you've experienced here and elsewhere, yet the bit I just quoted there sounds suspiciously like you just invited me to shut the hell up. Meaning you are trying to censor my opinion of your statements.

CM, you've made it abundantly obvious how much my opinion of your relationship bothers you.

You melted down over it some 40 pages ago.

You've repeatedly tried to protray yourself the victim, as if I forced my opinion on you, rather than you having asked me for it three times before I told you.

You've not once apologized for these misrepresentations, nor even acknowledged that this is how you came to be aware of my opinion.

You continue to post this passive/agressive stuff and I decided this time to make you aware of just how transparent you are.

Now if you wish to pursue that course, that's up to you.

My advice would be to accept that we disagree and either move on or find a more mature way to participate in this discussion.

Ignore it if you wish.

 

[Stella_Omega]

May we assume that pleasing your Mistress and Sir is important to you?

May we assume that you will ignore the fact that she's just said in perfectly clear language-- where her hard and fast line is?

 

[chy_girl]

May we assume that pleasing your Mistress and Sir is important to you?

Yes. And the largest way to displease my Mistress and Sir is for me to not use my voice when something isn't ok for me. They would never demand, outright or otherwise, that I do something I'm not ok with. And if I every agreed to something out of the misguided notion of "dealing with it for their pleasure" they would have my head on a pike. It's part of that Safe, Sane, Consensual thing that they take almost as seriously as they take my physical and mental well-being.

I am a person first and their girl second.

 

[BLoved]

NO MEANS NO!

The rules are only as good as those who apply them.

Given the behaviour in this discussion, it is rather obvious a double-standard applies.

 

[intothewoods]

The rules are only as good as those who apply them.

Absolutely. That's why groups succeed or fail in part by how well they uphold their own rules. There is one new group in my area that has had difficulty in this area; many have stopped attending the parties.

 

[BLoved]

I'm not on the board, since I'm not that involved in the scene, but my understanding is that there is a group of volunteers who run things. They collect money, it goes in a safe, it's brought back out to pay for parties.

Wait a minute.

You said:

Other groups are different. Black Rose is an old group in DC. They charge membership fees - those fees go to pay for weekly classes that are free or low cost to the community.

Who is getting that money?

 

[sb2009]

I've attended Black Rose events. The hotel they are held at ain't cheap ;-) It's a large, well known chain with a view of the Capitol building.

 

[BLoved]

Any "vanilla" party or event I've attended that was in any way attached to an organization has charged a fee to cover the expenses of said event.

...

A professionally run, clean, safe, orderly, legal, educational event costs more money to run than a neighborhood potluck.

So we are talking about a money-making organization, not a bunch of friends getting together for a potluck and 'play party'.

 

[BLoved]

Yes. And the largest way to displease my Mistress and Sir is for me to not use my voice when something isn't ok for me. They would never demand, outright or otherwise, that I do something I'm not ok with. And if I every agreed to something out of the misguided notion of "dealing with it for their pleasure" they would have my head on a pike. It's part of that Safe, Sane, Consensual thing that they take almost as seriously as they take my physical and mental well-being.

I am a person first and their girl second.

I totally agree you are a person first.

Do you recall the last time you disagreed with them with respect to a partner or the terms negotiated?

 

[sb2009]

have you never heard of educational organizations? My kid belongs to a runners club. We pay a yearly membership fee and fees for the races. These things cost money to put on, there are equipment costs, location costs, paper to print things on, etc.

 

[CutieMouse]

CM, you've made it abundantly obvious how much my opinion of your relationship bothers you.

You melted down over it some 40 pages ago.

You've repeatedly tried to protray yourself the victim, as if I forced my opinion on you, rather than you having asked me for it three times before I told you.

You've not once apologized for these misrepresentations, nor even acknowledged that this is how you came to be aware of my opinion.

You continue to post this passive/agressive stuff and I decided this time to make you aware of just how transparent you are.

Now if you wish to pursue that course, that's up to you.

You think *I* am being passive aggressive? I thought I was being pretty direct... must be slipping.

Pot, meet kettle; kettle, pot. Who wants some tea?

You were running about stating that anyone who's relationship model did not equate yours was in an abusive relationship. I asked how my perfectly healthy, supportive, emotionally stable, friendly, shared interest/hobbies, awesome communication, happy, developing relationship was abusive... You ignored my request. I did ask multiple times - because you kept ignoring the question. And in the end it boiled down to the fact that I didn't use the word LOVE after knowing the man for 3-4 weeks. Wow. If I had only said "Oh gosh golly gee I have this fabulous relationship with this guy and it's a healthy, supportive, emotionally stable, friendly, shared interest/hobbies, awesome communication, happy, developing relationship... we sure are in love!" you would have given me the golden blessing. But in your opinion, because I (IMO) take love more seriously than you, I'm obviously suffering from issues with self-esteem and abuse.

I'll be sure to tell my last therapist that you know better than she. Because you see I have done a shitload of therapy, and part of it was spent in learning healthy boundaries, as well as healthy relationship dynamics. And part of what I learned was it isn't healthy *for me* to get swept up in head over heels madly in love emotions right away. So I take my time with relationships... I have nothing but time, so I feel no rush.

You're right. I did lose my temper. What you forgot to mention was that I lost my temper after you took a very sardonic post of mine, to imply I was a weak willed, broken, abused, suffering victim in need of a white knight to rescue me. Excuse me, but I have worked far to hard to be associated with those sorts of individuals.

My advice would be to accept that we disagree and either move on or find a more mature way to participate in this discussion.

Ignore it if you wish.

And the person who was once screaming at how unfair the world is for trying to silence him, is advocating for my silence. Awesome.

 

[BLoved]

Absolutely. That's why groups succeed or fail in part by how well they uphold their own rules. There is one new group in my area that has had difficulty in this area; many have stopped attending the parties.

So we can say there are indeed some casual communities that you would deem unsafe?

 

[BLoved]

I've attended Black Rose events. The hotel they are held at ain't cheap ;-) It's a large, well known chain with a view of the Capitol building.

And presumably the Black Rose is making lots of money to pay for these events.

 

[chy_girl]

I totally agree you are a person first.

Do you recall the last time you disagreed with them with respect to a partner or the terms negotiated?

No. Because the only other person I played with was a flogging at my request and they have this really annoying habit of always asking me what I want and if I'm ok with things.

Do I ever disagree with them over other non-scene things? Yes. Fairly regularly. And we work out a compromise. It's that whole give-and-take thing that comes with being in an adult relationship.

 

[BLoved]

have you never heard of educational organizations? My kid belongs to a runners club. We pay a yearly membership fee and fees for the races. These things cost money to put on, there are equipment costs, location costs, paper to print things on, etc.

FurryFury explained how one munch and a fee gets you into a 'play party'.

You are talking about how it "ain't cheap" to rent the facilities used for Black Rose events.

Sounds like a lot of people paying a lot of fees to get into 'play parties' ... and all they have to do to be invited is chit-chat through one munch.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So we are talking about a money-making organization, not a bunch of friends getting together for a potluck and 'play party'.

Does that make a difference?