The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[warrior queen]

Those who engage in or approve of casual 'bdsm' tend to suffer from low self-esteem which manifests itself defensively in a variety of anti-social behaviour driven by an obsessive/compulsive-like need for approval ... at any cost.[/QUOTE=BLoved]

i have selectively quoted this part of one of your posts, as it illustrates very clearly your complete ignorance of actual fact.

i have never yet met a person with whom i have engaged in casual sexual encounters (including BDSM) who had low self-esteem.
in fact, it's quite the opposite.

in my experience, those who suffer with low self esteem seem to be those who do not engage in casual encounters.... rather, they fall into the group that is looking for love with every new person they meet.

sounds a lot like you actually!

jumping into 'true love' after only a very short time smacks of craving acceptance and reading your own words stating that you had found it within 3 weeks seems an act of desperation rather than an act befitting a rational person.
now that your 'true love' has broken after such a short time tells everyone here that your neediness matches your ignorance.

 

[warrior queen]

You seem to be overlooking one very big difference.

I took weeks talking with my beloved to learn more about her before we talked of living together.

According to FurryFury, anyone who can chit-chat through one munch can be invited to a 'play party'.

I took my responsibility to do the best I could to make sure this would be a good fit for both of us seriously.

Chit-chatting through one munch is not what I'd call a serious effort to screen out anyone who might be damaged by casual 'bdsm'.

and how did that work out for you???

comparing us....
you = failed at 'true love' despite apparently making every effort to achieve it...
me = found 'true love' despite doing everything possible to sabotage it! (including making it quite clear i was there for a one-night-stand-fuckfest ONLY!!!)

edited to add.... my guess is that, like me, most here have a very healthy self-worth.

 

[intothewoods]

You seem to be overlooking one very big difference.

I took weeks talking with my beloved to learn more about her before we talked of living together.

According to FurryFury, anyone who can chit-chat through one munch can be invited to a 'play party'.

I took my responsibility to do the best I could to make sure this would be a good fit for both of us seriously.

Chit-chatting through one munch is not what I'd call a serious effort to screen out anyone who might be damaged by casual 'bdsm'.

Because you are invited to a play party doesn't mean you are invited to play. It's a party. People meet, talk, and sometimes two people agree to play, but it's certainly not a given. In fact, I think single straight men have a particularly uphill battle meeting women.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You seem to be overlooking one very big difference.

I took weeks talking with my beloved to learn more about her before we talked of living together.

And you never noticed any inconsistencies in that incredibly long timeframe?

According to FurryFury, anyone who can chit-chat through one munch can be invited to a 'play party'.

I took my responsibility to do the best I could to make sure this would be a good fit for both of us seriously.

Your best wasn't good enough. You might not actually have the proper skills for such a delicate job; Love alone won't do it no matter how lovely the light on Jonathan Livingston Seagull's wings.

But then you blame her for your failure. Shame on you.

Chit-chatting through one munch is not what I'd call a serious effort to screen out anyone who might be damaged by casual 'bdsm'.

Oh, it's only the beginning of the screening process. I could explain more but i am bound by the secret oath of the casual BDSM society to never tell you. other people, sure. But your name is on the blacklist, Robert.

All joking aside--what I kind of worry about, are people like you and your ex girlfriend who damage each other in private. You have no social group with that accumulation of knowledge to fall back on when something goes wrong.

 

[intothewoods]

On the whole argument about falling in love quickly...

I think many on this board have spoken up in support of falling in love quickly.

My take is that I agree with Bloved in that there is no timetable for falling in love. But there is a timetable for making practical decisions like when to move in together, what to discuss before making a commitment, etc.

 

[WriterDom]

Chit-chatting through one munch is not what I'd call a serious effort to screen out anyone who might be damaged by casual 'bdsm'.

God have mercy on those poor fragile females victimized by casual bdsm.

70 pages of this and we've yet to meet one here? Other than the one who left Bloved after a month of playing house. And she was only channeled through him so we can't be completely sure she ever existed other than in his mind.

 

[warrior queen]

But then you blame her for your failure. Shame on you.

the fact that BLoved blames someone else shows his own lack of integrity and self-esteem, don't you agree?!

 

[warrior queen]

On the whole argument about falling in love quickly...

I think many on this board have spoken up in support of falling in love quickly.

My take is that I agree with Bloved in that there is no timetable for falling in love. But there is a timetable for making practical decisions like when to move in together, what to discuss before making a commitment, etc.

i don't question falling in love quickly.
can, and frequently does, happen!

what i question, is going out there with the express intention of finding 'true love'... and basing one's entire self-worth and future behaviour on whether or not one finds it.

 

[intothewoods]

i don't question falling in love quickly.
can, and frequently does, happen!

what i question, is going out there with the express intention of finding 'true love'... and basing one's entire self-worth and future behaviour on whether or not one finds it.

Well, I see nothing wrong with looking for true love. I mean we can argue about the "true" part, but whatever, I think most people want love in their life. I don't think you really can find your self-worth in love though. That's your own work.

 

[BLoved]

And you never noticed any inconsistencies in that incredibly long timeframe?

There were no inconsistencies. Had I seen any I would not have invited her to visit me.

Your best wasn't good enough. You might not actually have the proper skills for such a delicate job; Love alone won't do it no matter how lovely the light on Jonathan Livingston Seagull's wings.

I do not doubt my abilities when it comes to love or helping another.

If you are faulting me because I can't perform miracles, guilty as charged.

But then you blame her for your failure. Shame on you.

I do not "blame" her for anything.

If I want to blame anyone, I can blame her parents for the damage they did before we met.

No one can stop another from running away if that person is determined to run. That's the nature of those who suffer from cycles of self-destuction. They only allow love to get so close, and then they run.

It was a lack of love in her life that caused the abuse she's suffered and led to this state of affairs.

She believed she could overcome this, and convinced me to believe in her.

She was wrong, and no one is more heart-broken about that than me.

Yes, in a very real sense I failed her. My love failed to inspire the best in her. That must mean I'm not the right person for her. She was the one who told me I was the right person for her. Because of the age difference I hadn't even considered the possibility of a romance with her. We'd already talked for some time, and I thought I was helping her find a good man who would love her.

We talked for some time after that before I invited her to visit me for a week. It was during that week that we agreed she would move in and stay.

We lived together eight weeks. There was a lot of drama in her life associated with her past. Her grandfather died and as I understand it it was from that time on that she began to doubt whether she loved me.

She told me she doesn't know why she felt that way.

She didn't tell me because she hoped she'd rekindle her love for me and all would be well. During this time she told me she loved me several times a day, and I had no reason to doubt her.

She painted a beautiful picture of a robin for my mother, gave it to her Monday.

She applied for a job on Tuesday.

Wednesday she announces she's leaving. She refused to discuss it. What little I've said about her reasons was as much as I could coax out of her.

She said she'd had no childhood, and all she wanted was to be a kid with no responsibilities.

She said she didn't love me.

She told me she'd fallen out of love two weeks earlier, during the time she was away at the funeral, and that she'd said nothing because she had hoped she'd fall in love again.

She didn't.

I would never have let her visit, much less live with me had I thought her capable of this.

I believed in her.

I trusted her.

I loved her.

I gave her the best I had to give. It wasn't enough.

Who is to blame? Her parents for abusing her. It is very unlikely we would have even met had they not abused her. She probably wouldn't have been looking for a master at a bdsm site.

In a very real sense we are both victims of that abuse.

Would another have succeeded where I failed? Possibly, but I think it unlikely.

I doubt there are many who would have given her the opportunity to choose her own destiny. Far more likely she would find people who would exploit her, force her to be what they wanted, much as her parents did.

Up until the last day she was assuring me she was a mature adult who wanted to learn about love.

And then she quit.

All joking aside--what I kind of worry about, are people like you and your ex girlfriend who damage each other in private. You have no social group with that accumulation of knowledge to fall back on when something goes wrong.

Considering the behaviour in this discussion, we are better off without you.

 

[Stella_Omega]

the fact that BLoved blames someone else shows his own lack of integrity and self-esteem, don't you agree?!

to be less than superhuman is a terrible sin, aye.

 

[BLoved]

what i question, is going out there with the express intention of finding 'true love'... and basing one's entire self-worth and future behaviour on whether or not one finds it.

Then you've never known what it is like to love and be loved.

Once experienced nothing less will suffice.

 

[minx1]

I do not doubt my abilities when it comes to love or helping another.



I do not "blame" her for anything.

If I want to blame anyone, I can blame her parents for the damage they did before we met.

No one can stop another from running away if that person is determined to run. That's the nature of those who suffer from cycles of self-destuction. They only allow love to get so close, and then they run.

It was a lack of love in her life that caused the abuse she's suffered and led to this state of affairs.

She believed she could overcome this, and convinced me to believe in her.

She was wrong, and no one is more heart-broken about that than me.

Yes, in a very real sense I failed her. My love failed to inspire the best in her. That must mean I'm not the right person for her. She was the one who told me I was the right person for her. Because of the age difference I hadn't even considered the possibility of a romance with her. We'd already talked for some time, and I thought I was helping her find a good man who would love her.

We talked for some time after that before I invited her to visit me for a week. It was during that week that we agreed she would move in and stay.

We lived together eight weeks. There was a lot of drama in her life associated with her past. Her grandfather died and as I understand it it was from that time on that she began to doubt whether she loved me.

She told me she doesn't know why she felt that way.

She didn't tell me because she hoped she'd rekindle her love for me and all would be well. During this time she told me she loved me several times a day, and I had no reason to doubt her.

She painted a beautiful picture of a robin for my mother, gave it to her Monday.

She applied for a job on Tuesday.

Wednesday she announces she's leaving. She refused to discuss it. What little I've said about her reasons was as much as I could coax out of her.

She said she'd had no childhood, and all she wanted was to be a kid with no responsibilities.

She said she didn't love me.

She told me she'd fallen out of love two weeks earlier, during the time she was away at the funeral, and that she'd said nothing because she had hoped she'd fall in love again.

She didn't.

I would never have let her visit, much less live with me had I thought her capable of this.

I believed in her.

I trusted her.

I loved her.

I gave her the best I had to give. It wasn't enough.

Who is to blame? Her parents for abusing her. It is very unlikely we would have even met had they not abused her. She probably wouldn't have been looking for a master at a bdsm site.

In a very real sense we are both victims of that abuse.

Would another have succeeded where I failed? Possibly, but I think it unlikely.

I doubt there are many who would have given her the opportunity to choose her own destiny. Far more likely she would find people who would exploit her, force her to be what they wanted, much as her parents did.

Up until the last day she was assuring me she was a mature adult who wanted to learn about love.

And then she quit.

I wasnt going to post because I know its futile trying to reason with someone who is so entrenched in their opinion.

But i do want to make this point in respect to the bolded part inparticular. Perhaps rather than it not being enough, it was too much.
You can love too much. That kind of love becomes oppressive and claustraphobic. When too much emphasis is placed on interpreting the meaning of love and how to be in love ''properly'' it takes away from the act of love itself. Sometimes you just have to let it be and let it evolve naturally.

You cant force love - I know this to my cost because there have been times when I have subconsiously tried.

Perhaps your Beloved did love you and something so significant happened whilst she was away that it caused her to stop loving you.
Or perhaps what she thought she felt...the feel good factor, the security of 'belonging' somewhere and the thrill of a new D/s relationship....she interpreted as love.
It could well have been the break from her new routine that made her realise it wasnt for her and that really it wasnt love that she was feeling.

Perhaps she was being completely honest with you when she was assuring you daily that she wanted to learn about love. But having to assure someone daily of your intention to learn about something that is usually fundamentally hinged on emotion would be exhausting I imagine. That kind of love could begin to feel like a chore itself.

IMO There is nothing freeing about enforced love.

 

[sb2009]

What I was trying to answer, was the question Bloved asked about "who gets the money?" from membership dues, class fees, etc and I answered that it costs money to have the events in the well known hotel the BR uses (and by well known I mean reputable, nice, safe, etc) so that is where some of the money goes.

Pay costs for speakers, etc. Bottles of water, coffee, etc...it costs money to put on a conference. I've worked in non profit for a wonderful cause that everyone supports we could never get meeting space for free LOL so I am certain a BDSM education group is not going to be given freebies either.

 

[rida]

You seem to be overlooking one very big difference.

I took weeks talking with my beloved to learn more about her before we talked of living together.

According to FurryFury, anyone who can chit-chat through one munch can be invited to a 'play party'.

I took my responsibility to do the best I could to make sure this would be a good fit for both of us seriously.

Chit-chatting through one munch is not what I'd call a serious effort to screen out anyone who might be damaged by casual 'bdsm'.

I know where you are wanting to go with this, but I'll play along (so that the unsuspecting reader can make up his or her own mind).

I'd only hope that the screening for a committed love relationship and to let someone move in and live with you (or move in and live with someone) would be a bit more thorough than the one to decide whether to invite someone to a party or not.

There are different things at stakes, different level of emotional involvement and different risks, physical and emotional.

And I will restate that I do not agree that there is anything inherently wrong in the pursue of play and pleasure outside of a love based relationship between mature and honest individuals.

However I agree that there are risk in assessing the level of maturity and honestly through talk and witnessing of actions. But that is true always, one night conversations and 3 weeks conversations. There are higher chances to find inconsistencies over time, but there is also the risk of getting emotionally invested and view things through wishful thinking.

There are inherent risk in interacting with other human being. There are risks with taking a chance on an individual. There are risks in falling in love. And there are risks in playing casually. Nobody denied the latter. We just stressed that the world of "public BDSM" (that is not synonymous with casual) is not that world "infested by abuser and dysfunctional greedy individual that will do anything for cheap thrill and are willing to let anyone willing to fork the price of admittance to the event" as you have been painting it over and over.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Then you've never known what it is like to love and be loved.

Once experienced nothing less will suffice.

And just like so many other people, you're willing to lie to yourself when you get something a little bit like True Love...

And you know, that's just human nature. Nothing more, nothing less.

But don't come here lauding your moral superiority.

Your crusade is being taken care of by better-equipped people than you are-- people that actually go to those munches you decry, for instance. if you really want to save those poor little subs you'd better get yourself out there where they are, otherwise your just an armchair warrior.

 

[CutieMouse]

It is very unlikely we would have even met had they not abused her. She probably wouldn't have been looking for a master at a bdsm site.

You have got to be kidding me.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You have got to be kidding me.

Nope-- he's kidding himself.

 

[BLoved]

Perhaps your Beloved did love you and something so significant happened whilst she was away that it caused her to stop loving you.

I've considered several scenarios over the past few days.

Perhaps she convinced herself she loved me because the situation at home was so bad she needed to escape and I was safe and available.

Perhaps the death of her grandfather and the fact her grandmother was alone convinced her that she needed to be there, so she fell out of love to be free of me.

Perhaps the past two weeks was the result of her feeling guilty over having said so much to assure me she'd never leave me.

Perhaps there was a crisis Wednesday morning involving her grandmother, so that became the day she decided to leave.

Perhaps ...

I don't know, and probably will never know.

What I do know is she broke my heart by leaving.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Here, sweetheart-- if you want to tilt at windmills, take on this young man who cannot imagine having sex unless it's rape or prostitutes;

Rape is equality

Pick on someone your own size, hmm?

 

[myinnerslut]

This thread is still going on? *rolls eyes*

 

[BLoved]

And just like so many other people, you're willing to lie to yourself when you get something a little bit like True Love...

And you know, that's just human nature. Nothing more, nothing less.

But don't come here lauding your moral superiority.

Your crusade is being taken care of by better-equipped people than you are-- people that actually go to those munches you decry, for instance. if you really want to save those poor little subs you'd better get yourself out there where they are, otherwise your just an armchair warrior.

The merits of my arguments against casual 'bdsm' have nothing to do with my relationship with my beloved.

You did not concede the merits when I was involved, I do not see any basis for dismissing the merits because the relationship ended.

 

[chy_girl]

Thank you for answering my questions.

Now, I will ask you again. Are you implying that because we pay an entrance fee to the dungeon when I attend with my Mistress and Sir that I am a whore to be bought and sold via the entrance fee for sexual favors?

 

[chy_girl]

The merits of my arguments against casual 'bdsm' have nothing to do with my relationship with my beloved.

You did not concede the merits when I was involved, I do not see any basis for dismissing the merits because the relationship ended.

Did you fuck her?

Oral, anal, vaginal, finger fuck, fuck her with a toy? Any of the above? No details needed, a yes or no answer will do.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The merits of my arguments against casual 'bdsm' have nothing to do with my relationship with my beloved.

You did not concede the merits when I was involved, I do not see any basis for dismissing the merits because the relationship ended.

Your argument doesn't make any sense-- I stated you were deluding yourself at least two weeks ago, and you are still an isolated asshole who is screaming about the dangers of modern life -- from the safety of your internet connection.