Overly critical feedback from non-authors

[SimonDoom]

I couldn’t paint a portrait or a landscape but I can still tell whether or not it’s a good painting.

I'm a so-so cook, but I know good and bad food when I taste it.

I can't make wine, but I know (most of the time) if it's good or bad.

I can't play piano, but I can tell good piano playing from bad.

Before December 2016, I had never written an erotic story. But I had read hundreds, maybe thousands, of Literotica stories up to that point, and had been an avid reader of fiction of all kinds all my life. I also had experience with editing, journalism, professional writing, and teaching grammar. I darn well was qualified to opine on the good and bad points of erotic stories, and had useful things to say, despite never having written a word of erotic fiction.

One of the very useful qualities to have if you want to be a writer is -- a thick skin.

 

[gordo12]

One of my readers pointed out that my story Runner's High was a hookup that happened way too soon,

But then he went on to say my latest story, Stuck in the Snow, had the same issue.

I haven't read runner's high but I did read stuck in the snow. It certainly seemed well paced considering it took place in a blizzard. Lonely woman, stranded motorist I mean what else do you do for days on end when you're snowed in. After all we're all adults. We can have sex if we're single. Marriage, of course, brings on conditions rivalling the Sahara.

I thought it was an appropriate place to introduce sex so fuck your (anon?) commenter. LOL

 

[ThisNameIsntTakenYet]

I haven't read runner's high but I did read stuck in the snow. It certainly seemed well paced considering it took place in a blizzard. Lonely woman, stranded motorist I mean what else do you do for days on end when you're snowed in. After all we're all adults. We can have sex if we're single. Marriage, of course, brings on conditions rivalling the Sahara.

I thought it was an appropriate place to introduce sex so fuck your (anon?) commenter. LOL

Not anon, surprisingly. It wasn't an angry comment either, pretty long and well-worded. An anon came to my defense though and gave me 5 stars, so I it all worked out, haha. But thanks for the reply, glad to hear you disagree too.

 

[gordo12]

Not anon, surprisingly. It wasn't an angry comment either, pretty long and well-worded. An anon came to my defense though and gave me 5 stars, so I it all worked out, haha. But thanks for the reply, glad to hear you disagree too.

I went back and read Runner's High. Again the sex happened at a good point. Both stories were enjoyable and held together nicely.

The commenter isn't a writer and is known for his/her negative comments.

I don't think people understand just how difficult it is to write a 2-3 page erotic story and have it...…..EROTIC. Of course things have to be on a compressed timeline. This isn't War and Peace or Atlas Shrugged.

 

[KeithD]

I don't do a lot of hand wringing or hashing of why characters would let themselves get to the point of sex with other characters (or anyone, really). My plots (and I do have them) usually are focused on something else entirely. So most of my characters will get to bed quickly (and often) and with few qualms (a lot are prostitutes) without 4,000 words of "should I?/will it make me a slut?" buildup. Readers who stumble onto my stories will discover that and have the choice of liking it or not; those who like it can read other stories of mine. Enough do to make it worthwhile. For the others, the Web site gives me the power of the "delete comment" button if I think they are being too obnoxious or expecting me to be on their page rather than mine.

Rather than a lot of angsting over what an uncontrollable reader is going to do in comments, I recommend the "take it as you like," don't try to control the uncontrollable, and use the delete button if the comment bothers you approach--and putting your energy into writing the next story--and writing it just the way you want it.

 

[NotWise]

I don't do a lot of hand wringing or hashing of why characters would let themselves get to the point of sex with other characters (or anyone, really). My plots (and I do have them) usually are focused on something else entirely. So most of my characters will get to bed quickly (and often) and with few qualms (a lot are prostitutes) without 4,000 words of "should I?/will it make me a slut?" buildup. Readers who stumble onto my stories will discover that and have the choice of liking it or not; those who like it can read other stories of mine. Enough do make it worthwhile. For the others, the Web site gives me the power of the "delete comment" button if I think they are being too obnoxious or expecting me to be on their page rather than mine.

Rather than a lot of angsting over what an uncontrollable reader is going to do in comments, I recommend the "take it as you like," don't try to control the uncontrollable, and use the delete button if the comment bothers you approach--and putting your energy into writing the next story--and writing it just the way you want it.

The comment that Taken got might be unique to the Romance category. Some people there want very slow development. I got a comment once that my female character was a whore (in all caps) because she bedded the guy the second time they got together. I seem to recall someone else reporting the same comment (maybe MB?). Laurel deleted the comment before I decided to get rid of it.

 

[gordo12]

I don't do a lot of hand wringing or hashing of why characters would let themselves get to the point of sex with other characters (or anyone, really). My plots (and I do have them) usually are focused on something else entirely. So most of my characters will get to bed quickly (and often) and with few qualms (a lot are prostitutes) without 4,000 words of "should I?/will it make me a slut?" buildup. Readers who stumble onto my stories will discover that and have the choice of liking it or not; those who like it can read other stories of mine. Enough do to make it worthwhile. For the others, the Web site gives me the power of the "delete comment" button if I think they are being too obnoxious or expecting me to be on their page rather than mine.

Rather than a lot of angsting over what an uncontrollable reader is going to do in comments, I recommend the "take it as you like," don't try to control the uncontrollable, and use the delete button if the comment bothers you approach--and putting your energy into writing the next story--and writing it just the way you want it.

That works for you and if I'd written anywhere near the amount of stories you have I could adopt your attitude.

The thing is most of us are still in the learning stage. And sometimes those comments can teach us something about what does or doesn't work. Don't forget for every comment there was probably a hundred or so other readers that thought the same thing. Are they right? Are they wrong? That's the learning experience and why I don't delete comments. Even the really ugly ones sometimes have some meat to them.

I go back every so often and re-read my stories along with the comments. Just to see if time, distance and experience have given me a different perspective.

 

[ThisNameIsntTakenYet]

The comment that Taken got might be unique to the Romance category. Some people there want very slow development. I got a comment once that my female character was a whore (in all caps) because she bedded the guy the second time they got together. I seem to recall someone else reporting the same comment (maybe MB?). Laurel deleted the comment before I decided to get rid of it.

I think so, it had to do with them saying proximity to someone not being enough to warrant sex and such. Also sounded like "kids these days..."

That works for you and if I'd written anywhere near the amount of stories you have I could adopt your attitude.

The thing is most of us are still in the learning stage. And sometimes those comments can teach us something about what does or doesn't work. Don't forget for every comment there was probably a hundred or so other readers that thought the same thing. Are they right? Are they wrong? That's the learning experience and why I don't delete comments. Even the really ugly ones sometimes have some meat to them.

I go back every so often and re-read my stories along with the comments. Just to see if time, distance and experience have given me a different perspective.

Indeed, and where it concerned Runner's High I do see their point. Had I written the story now with my new experience and without the pressure of the contest, I'd probably have inserted a little time skip or summary that showed they had been running together for I don't know... a few weeks at least, maybe a month or two. That way there would have been more time to develop a believable connection I suppose. It's something I'm keeping in mind for my future stories anyway, but not enough reason to submit an edit for this one. Especially not since both Gordo and the anon that defended me disagreed with the comment.

So yes, negative comments are definitely learning opportunities, and this was clearly not a troll comment. Those I do ignore or delete indeed.

 

[KeithD]

And sometimes those comments can teach us something about what does or doesn't work.

More often not, which is the essential point. And it being "often not" means you are more likely to be shunted off into blind writing alleys and pabulum writing than helped by putting great stock in the comments here.

These are strangers on the Internet, most of whom don't know as much as you do about writing no matter how early in development you are. A key element in becoming a writer is to believe in yourself and what you write no matter how imperfect it is, to stop writing by stranger committee, and to seek out for yourself, when you are in receptive mode, those writing what you are but recognizably better--which you get by reading voraciously and by seeking those out who have demonstrated they do well what you want to do better. That's rarely going to come in a comment on one of your Literotica stories.

The greatest value of the comments on a Web site like Literotica is to gather assurance that what turns you on turns others on too and that they applaud your ability to put that into writing--that's the incentive for continuing to post stories here. Sorry, but that's the bottom line here. To take it much further is to self volunteer to angst over your writing largely unnecessarily (and often damaging to your writing development).

 

[gordo12]

More often not, which is the essential point. And it being "often not" means you are more likely to be shunted off into blind writing alleys and pabulum writing than helped by putting great stock in the comments here.

These are strangers on the Internet, most of whom don't know as much as you do about writing no matter how early in development you are. A key element in becoming a writer is to believe in yourself and what you write no matter how imperfect it is, to stop writing by stranger committee, and to seek out for yourself, when you are in receptive mode, those writing what you are but recognizably better--which you get by reading voraciously and by seeking those out who have demonstrated they do well what you want to do better. That's rarely going to come in a comment on one of your Literotica stories.

The greatest value of the comments on a Web site like Literotica is to gather assurance that what turns you on turns others on too and that they applaud your ability to put that into writing--that's the incentive for continuing to post stories here. Sorry, but that's the bottom line here. To take it much further is to self volunteer to angst over your writing largely unnecessarily (and often damaging to your writing development).

No need to be sorry. I actually pay attention to a lot that you say. I understand you have bucket loads of experience and probably thousands of stories under your belt. We may disagree at times, but I do respect that experience.

My Winter contest story got a comment about something I was doing wrong. I wrote him and asked for examples he laid it out and gave me examples of doing it the right way. I checked it out and he was right.

I have hundreds of thousands of words in stories I'm currently spending hours on editing and changing.

So is that writing by committee or writing by someone who finally took pity on me

I've learned from comments from day 1 and I have the confidence in myself that I can do this and the confidence that I'll find clues and help along the way. Just as I don't ignore you, I won't ignore them.

 

[ThisNameIsntTakenYet]

I've learned from comments from day 1 and I have the confidence in myself that I can do this and the confidence that I'll find clues and help along the way. Just as I don't ignore you, I won't ignore them.

Exactly. I do take the advice of other writers much more seriously than comments, but that doesn't mean I should ignore all comments by definition. The end of the day, other writers are only a small fraction of your readership on here. Reading comments is, at least for me, a good way to find out what readers like and don't, and to get to know what does well in certain categories.

I'm confident in that my technical writing and plot are at least decent, but a good or even great story can still do poorly if it's not what your readers want to read. Of course Keith has the advantage of (as far as I know) exclusively writing gay male stories, so getting to know different categories isn't as useful as for people writing straight stories. For me those comments are pretty useful, knowing what people did and didn't like, and why. Especially if I post in a new category for the first time.

 

[KeithD]

No, "Keith" doesn't write exclusive gay male. "Keith," under other accounts here has hundreds of stories posted over at least twenty-one categories and "Keith" publishes extensive in multiple genres in the marketplace (where the best-selling works are light lesbian mysteries). "Keith" just generally categorizes his accounts. An exception was the sr71plt account which, yes, mostly is GM, but it also produced more straight genre works than almost anyone else posting regularly to the discussion board has in their total list.

That said, one reason that "Keith" (no, of course that's not really my name) posts so many works is that "Keith" doesn't spend a whole lot of time angsting over reader comments on Literotica.

I agree that, if you see something in a comment that hits home as useful, that's a good thing. It hits home, though, because you realized it's valid. And you can bet that those comments are few and far between unless you're a pretty bad writer, in which case, you might be happier taking up golf or knitting. At least then there won't be a lot of angsting to do on this on the discussion board.

 

[SimonDoom]

More often not, which is the essential point. And it being "often not" means you are more likely to be shunted off into blind writing alleys and pabulum writing than helped by putting great stock in the comments here.

These are strangers on the Internet, most of whom don't know as much as you do about writing no matter how early in development you are. A key element in becoming a writer is to believe in yourself and what you write no matter how imperfect it is, to stop writing by stranger committee, and to seek out for yourself, when you are in receptive mode, those writing what you are but recognizably better--which you get by reading voraciously and by seeking those out who have demonstrated they do well what you want to do better. That's rarely going to come in a comment on one of your Literotica stories.

The greatest value of the comments on a Web site like Literotica is to gather assurance that what turns you on turns others on too and that they applaud your ability to put that into writing--that's the incentive for continuing to post stories here. Sorry, but that's the bottom line here. To take it much further is to self volunteer to angst over your writing largely unnecessarily (and often damaging to your writing development).

I agree with this generally, but think there are three broad exceptions.

One is when a reader points out something that I've done technically wrong -- spelling, misuse of a word, bad grammar, etc. Often they're right.

The second is when the reader points out that I've made some error about a technical or factual matter that I should have researched better. For instance, a reader correctly pointed out that I used the term "tensile strength" incorrectly in one story. He was right. I used the phrase because I liked the sound of it, but it made no sense at all in the context in which it was used.

The third is when the reader tells me something a character has done is implausible. Sometimes I think the point is not well taken, because human motivation is almost infinite in its variety, but sometimes I think it's a good point. Comments like these have made me become more mindful about whether my characters' actions flow from coherent motivations and personality traits, as opposed to seeming jury-rigged to suit whatever neat plot twist I want the story to have at the moment.

 

[KeithD]

OK (and I conceded agreement with that already), but how often has that happened? And what is the balance of that with nonsense comments? I think I can count the "yeah, I see that, you're right" comments I've gotten on some 1,200 stories here on two hands when there have been far more "you're full of crap" comments I've received that my experience and training (and ability to google, which I did to begin with) assure me are off the mark. I think that, for developing writers, there will be a preponderance of "you're full of crap" comments that will overbalance the benefit of taking comments seriously enough here to ruminate on them on the discussion board rather than just hitting the delete button and moving on.

 

[oggbashan]

Recently I have had critical comments suggesting that my story was wrong on technical details of history and/or plausibility of the timing of events.

Almost every comment was actually wrong on the facts which I knew from experience at the time of the story or by research.

Only one was technically right. Oliver Cromwell didn't ban Christmas. His parliament did when he was away in Ireland. But he approved of the ban. But that is a minor niggle. It was his troops who tried to enforce it. I'm not going to change the title of my story because it wasn't Oliver Cromwell personally that banned Christmas.

 

[SimonDoom]

OK (and I conceded agreement with that already), but how often has that happened? And what is the balance of that with nonsense comments? .

It's a fair question. I suspect the answer varies wildly from author to author.

For me, the answer is, quite often. In particular, I am interested in readers who address the issue of plausibility, because my stories often push up against, or perhaps cross over, the boundaries of what's plausible. From what I have read of your stories, they don't do so as much. You've had a few stories that veer into wacky territory, such as the one about the older woman seducing the Amish man on a cruise ship, but in general your stories (from what I've read of them) strike me as fairly realistic. What turns you on may be different from what turns me on.

I enjoy stories, both as a reader and writer, that deal with characters doing things they've never done before. Sometimes as an author I have them do things that are, frankly, crazy. But I want to take the reader along with me and do as much as I can not to lose that reader -- to do what I can to convince the reader that my characters are plausibly capable of doing crazy erotic things.

Just today I received a comment from a reader of a story of mine, who felt I'd crossed the line. I'm not necessarily going to dial back the adventurousness of my stories going forward, but I see comments like these as useful data points to inform how I want to creatively address the issue of plausibility in the future.

 

[KeithD]

You've had a few stories that veer into wacky territory, such as the one about the older woman seducing the Amish man on a cruise ship, but in general your stories (from what I've read of them) strike me as fairly realistic.

This is exactly the story example I use when "called the main truth in the story implausible" discussions come up here. The whole inspiration of my Amish couple on a Caribbean cruise story was being in the cabin next to a young Amish couple boarding in Baltimore in traditional dowdy attire and shy countenance and then from the time the boat sailed to when it docked in Baltimore again partying in skimpy wear like there was no tomorrow (which, maybe, for them, there wasn't) and disembarking in traditional dowdy attire and shy countenance. The whole inspiration for the story was what actually was observed (and heard through the cabin walls).

 

[gordo12]

This is exactly the story example I use when "called the main truth in the story implausible" discussions come up here. The whole inspiration of my Amish couple on a Caribbean cruise story was being in the cabin next to a young Amish couple boarding in Baltimore in traditional dowdy attire and shy countenance and then from the time the boat sailed to when it docked in Baltimore again partying in skimpy wear like there was no tomorrow (which, maybe, for them, there wasn't) and disembarking in traditional dowdy attire and shy countenance. The whole inspiration for the story was what actually was observed (and heard through the cabin walls).

The Amish have Rumspringa so it's not as unlikely as people might think. I wouldn't mind reading that.

 

[KeithD]

The Amish have Rumspringa so it's not as unlikely as people might think. I wouldn't mind reading that.

It's a cougar story in the Mature category (so not GM).

https://www.literotica.com/s/amish-honeymoon-cruise

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

This is exactly the story example I use when "called the main truth in the story implausible" discussions come up here. The whole inspiration of my Amish couple on a Caribbean cruise story was being in the cabin next to a young Amish couple boarding in Baltimore in traditional dowdy attire and shy countenance and then from the time the boat sailed to when it docked in Baltimore again partying in skimpy wear like there was no tomorrow (which, maybe, for them, there wasn't) and disembarking in traditional dowdy attire and shy countenance. The whole inspiration for the story was what actually was observed (and heard through the cabin walls).

A really good example. Many people confound what’s personally believable in their own sphere of experience with what’s “plausible” and what’s “possible”. Three different things.

 

[oggbashan]

A really good example. Many people confound what’s personally believable in their own sphere of experience with what’s “plausible” and what’s “possible”. Three different things.

When someone from the US mid-west criticises my story set in 1960s London because 'it couldn't have been like that' and that word wasn't used - when I was there and saw it happen, and many people were using that word which had been in use in England for several hundred years - I get annoyed.

 

[KeithD]

When someone from the US mid-west criticises my story set in 1960s London because 'it couldn't have been like that' and that word wasn't used - when I was there and saw it happen, and many people were using that word which had been in use in England for several hundred years - I get annoyed.

Especially when you can go to the dictionary and find an origin date for the word something like 1630.

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

When someone from the US mid-west criticises my story set in 1960s London because 'it couldn't have been like that' and that word wasn't used - when I was there and saw it happen, and many people were using that word which had been in use in England for several hundred years - I get annoyed.

Yes, the fourth bucket: things that happen all the time, but you, dear reader, are just not familiar with them!

 

[sbrooks103]

Does anyone else get irritated by overly critical feedback from non-authors? It compares to food critics who can't cook. I feel the voting/comments system should be altered. One should have the choice of allowing everyone vote/comment on their works. Or allow only fellow published authors to vote/comment.

Writing has no bearing on anybody's ability or right to criticize. Siskel and Ebert were two highly regarded film critics, neither of whom, I believe, ever made a movie.

 

[sbrooks103]

They are here reading for free (and some are here just to troll). What evidence is there that they shell out money for books?

He was talking about the larger literary world, but the opinion is still valid here.