Do guns make us more safe?

[subdudeme13]

And if the Secret Service had done their job and killed the shooter, or subdued him, before he got a shot off no one but him would have been shot. If people in the crowd were pointing him out and saying he had a rifle before shots were fired why didn't the police or SS see him and stop him? Just seems a bit fishy to me.

As I read my post again I realize my tone was off. My point is good men with a gun did not stop the killer till after people were killed.

 

[waratah]

Australia is a good example of the benefits of gun control. Ban automatic weapons and you get fewer (In Australia's case none) mass shootings.
https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/defaul...he_united_states_submitted_to_peer_review.pdf

You are obviously ignorant of of the causes of suicide and there relationship to guns. I personally believe in the right to die. Guns are a terrible way on all involved to do it. Guns offer a quick way to kill and people in a moment of distress will do stupid things.

Your statement isn't entirely correct. They didn't ban automatic weapons ( I assume you mean semi-automatic?) still available with approval. We have had several mass shootings, the suspicion is they changed to definition to make it look like none.

And more importantly, the already low death rate decreased at about the same rate after the mid nineties gun law changes as the 20 years before.

I'm ignorant of several things, but not that. Stop insulting instead of debating.

And why the low rate od deaths? The points i listed in the post. Please address the points I made.

 

[subdudeme13]

I do not recall the details of the NFA but a lot of weapons were bought back. I don't know what effect gun laws had on the death rate and I imagine if they were available you would have pointed them out. Mass shootings could be an insignificant factor in death rate.
My information on mass shooting was dated. You can look at page 5 to see the Australian Government data I was using. Cheers!
https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/defaul...he_united_states_submitted_to_peer_review.pdf

 

[waratah]

I do not recall the details of the NFA but a lot of weapons were bought back. I don't know what effect gun laws had on the death rate and I imagine if they were available you would have pointed them out. Mass shootings could be an insignificant factor in death rate.
My information on mass shooting was dated. You can look at page 5 to see the Australian Government data I was using. Cheers!
https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/defaul...he_united_states_submitted_to_peer_review.pdf

I'll be home mid next week and have access to a mouse! So will have more time and can copy links etc much easier.

Australian Institute of Criminology has a plethora of data if you get curious in the meantime.

 

[subdudeme13]

I am not sure I need more data. I don't see myself changing my mind. I think firearms should be limited in capacity and rate of fire. Next time I hear someone defended themselves with an assault weapon I might want to compare that to the number of people killed randomly by assault weapons. I hunted in PA and our shotguns were limited to three rounds anything more had to be plugged. I think we could get more rounds in a rifle but if you don't get a deer in three shots you are not going to get a fourth, probably. Right now I do not like guns. I have a picture of myself with three other Air Force buddies. Two are dead by gunshot suicide. I have been robbed at gun point. You could understand why I am not a big fan.

 

[waratah]

I am not sure I need more data. I don't see myself changing my mind. I think firearms should be limited in capacity and rate of fire. Next time I hear someone defended themselves with an assault weapon I might want to compare that to the number of people killed randomly by assault weapons. I hunted in PA and our shotguns were limited to three rounds anything more had to be plugged. I think we could get more rounds in a rifle but if you don't get a deer in three shots you are not going to get a fourth, probably. Right now I do not like guns. I have a picture of myself with three other Air Force buddies. Two are dead by gunshot suicide. I have been robbed at gun point. You could understand why I am not a big fan.

I'm sorry you lost friends to 'the black dog'. It's a bitch!

I'm a strong believer in social safety nets, supported/ing communities, tax funded universal health systems, early mental health support, robust childhoods and dads out of gaol if possible. Thats a hard barrow to push at the moment.

 

[TrailerHitch]

I am not sure I need more data. I don't see myself changing my mind. I think firearms should be limited in capacity and rate of fire. Next time I hear someone defended themselves with an assault weapon I might want to compare that to the number of people killed randomly by assault weapons. I hunted in PA and our shotguns were limited to three rounds anything more had to be plugged. I think we could get more rounds in a rifle but if you don't get a deer in three shots you are not going to get a fourth, probably. Right now I do not like guns. I have a picture of myself with three other Air Force buddies. Two are dead by gunshot suicide. I have been robbed at gun point. You could understand why I am not a big fan.

So let me see if I have this right...You are opposed to an innocent victim protecting themselves against criminals if they use what you improperly label as an assault weapon to defend themselves. Why? What business is it of yours? Further what relationship is there between someone lawfully using a firearm to protect themselves and someone else using it to commit a crime?

I get it, you don't like guns. That is 100% your right. My brother, and a very good friend of mine, committed suicide by using firearms. I do not blame the firearms I know the causes of the suicide, one was alcoholism and depression, and the other depression over the death of his wife. The firearms were the implement of their suicides, not the cause. They would be just as dead had they run their car in a closed garage, slit their wrists, or purposely crashed their cars at high speed. The way someone commits suicide does not change the emotions of losing someone to suicide.

 

[wizzard426]

I just checked.....all of the guns are still in the safes. I feel something.

She hit me for "feeling"........................

 

[RobDownSouth]

And if the Secret Service had done their job and killed the shooter, or subdued him, before he got a shot off no one but him would have been shot. If people in the crowd were pointing him out and saying he had a rifle before shots were fired why didn't the police or SS see him and stop him? Just seems a bit fishy to me.

Poor AJ (d/b/a "Trailer Hitch" this month) is beside himself that the shooter is a white male registered Republican who grew up in a Libertarian household full of guns.

AJ's got a hard drive full of stock talking points for Muslim shooters, non-white shooters, non-English speaking shooters, gay shooters, lesbian shooters, liberal shooters, transgender shooters....just about anything and everything else.

The shooter, as much as he is pained to admit this, is a much younger version of himself.

He cannot accept this painful reality, it hits too close to home and causes him much grief.

To avoid self-reflection, he has pivoted to "but... but... Teh SECRET SERVICE!!!" to avoid PTSD.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Poor AJ (d/b/a "Trailer Hitch" this month) is beside himself that the shooter is a white male registered Republican who grew up in a Libertarian household full of guns.

AJ's got a hard drive full of stock talking points for Muslim shooters, non-white shooters, non-English speaking shooters, gay shooters, lesbian shooters, liberal shooters, transgender shooters....just about anything and everything else.

The shooter, as much as he is pained to admit this, is a much younger version of himself.

He cannot accept this painful reality, it hits too close to home and causes him much grief.

To avoid self-reflection, he has pivoted to "but... but... Teh SECRET SERVICE!!!" to avoid PTSD.

Yawn...Never been anyone close to AJ. My other alt has been clearly identified and no others have appeared. Nice try though, well not really. When you can't disprove what is said you have to go off on your psychotic alt rant, or make up some other bull shit to make yourself seem plausible to the rest of your lunatic cronies. I never mentioned the race of the shooter. My entire post was about the failings of the Secret Service and local police to heed the warnings of attendees at this rally that there was someone on that roof with a rifle. You want to divert that to claim all kinds of nonsense about me because let's face it I'm right here and you can't defend against truth unless you lie and fabricate.

 

[subdudeme13]

I'm sorry you lost friends to 'the black dog'. It's a bitch!

I'm a strong believer in social safety nets, supported/ing communities, tax funded universal health systems, early mental health support, robust childhoods and dads out of gaol if possible. Thats a hard barrow to push at the moment.

So let me see if I have this right...You are opposed to an innocent victim protecting themselves against criminals if they use what you improperly label as an assault weapon to defend themselves. Why? What business is it of yours? Further what relationship is there between someone lawfully using a firearm to protect themselves and someone else using it to commit a crime?

I get it, you don't like guns. That is 100% your right. My brother, and a very good friend of mine, committed suicide by using firearms. I do not blame the firearms I know the causes of the suicide, one was alcoholism and depression, and the other depression over the death of his wife. The firearms were the implement of their suicides, not the cause. They would be just as dead had they run their car in a closed garage, slit their wrists, or purposely crashed their cars at high speed. The way someone commits suicide does not change the emotions of losing someone to suicide.

I am not against innocent victims protecting themselves. I am against the idea we must all carry guns to protect our selves. That is stupid and you belong in Jones Town! I have some CoolAid for you! No need to reply with your BS. I ignored you! I love that feature

 

[TrailerHitch]

I am not against innocent victims protecting themselves. I am against the idea we must all carry guns to protect our selves. That is stupid and you belong in Jones Town! I have some CoolAid for you! No need to reply with your BS. I ignored you! I love that feature

Ridiculous analogy. Further Jonestown did Not use poisoned Kool-Aid (proper spelling), they used Grape Flavor-Aid.

Ignored me? Thank goodness I won't have to read anymore of your idiotic horseshit.

 

[Sean Renaud]

So let me see if I have this right...You are opposed to an innocent victim protecting themselves against criminals if they use what you improperly label as an assault weapon to defend themselves. Why? What business is it of yours? Further what relationship is there between someone lawfully using a firearm to protect themselves and someone else using it to commit a crime?

I get it, you don't like guns. That is 100% your right. My brother, and a very good friend of mine, committed suicide by using firearms. I do not blame the firearms I know the causes of the suicide, one was alcoholism and depression, and the other depression over the death of his wife. The firearms were the implement of their suicides, not the cause. They would be just as dead had they run their car in a closed garage, slit their wrists, or purposely crashed their cars at high speed. The way someone commits suicide does not change the emotions of losing someone to suicide.

Without the gun odds are your brother and friend would still be alive. I get that you don't give a shit. Being a conservative requires not giving a fuck about people but that's all there is too it.

What business is it anybody's how many Americans get shot every year? I guess none. Until I'm on the business end of a bullet nothing else matters. MAGA!!!!!

 

[curiousnme]

Without the gun odds are your brother and friend would still be alive. I get that you don't give a shit. Being a conservative requires not giving a fuck about people but that's all there is too it.

What business is it anybody's how many Americans get shot every year? I guess none. Until I'm on the business end of a bullet nothing else matters. MAGA!!!!!

An argument (position) which has to refer to “don’t give a shit” (stating TrailerHitch doesn’t care about the deaths of relatives and friends), “a conservative not giving a fuck about people” and “MAGA” (assuming your condescending reference to half the US that are Republican) loses relavence to those reading it.
On the issue of guns, no one is going to change anyone’s personal opinion, especially by name calling. At one period in our history disagreements were presented rationally, without animosity, name calling and personal attacks.
For your information, your view of conservatives is troubling and inherently false, as these “fly-over”, “deplorables” are god fearing, hard working, flag flying Americans - even some of us New Englanders!

 

[Bn2f]

An argument (position) which has to refer to “don’t give a shit” (stating TrailerHitch doesn’t care about the deaths of relatives and friends), “a conservative not giving a fuck about people” and “MAGA” (assuming your condescending reference to half the US that are Republican) loses relavence to those reading it.
On the issue of guns, no one is going to change anyone’s personal opinion, especially by name calling. At one period in our history disagreements were presented rationally, without animosity, name calling and personal attacks.
For your information, your view of conservatives is troubling and inherently false, as these “fly-over”, “deplorables” are god fearing, hard working, flag flying Americans - even some of us New Englanders!

Um… GFY

 

[Bn2f]

Naw. Sorry. Fuck yer feelings snowflaking MAGA trumpers don’t get to come here to condescendingly call for civility.

 

[Chobham]

They absolutely do.

13% of the population commit 54% of ALL murders. 27% of the population commit 27% of ALL murders. That leaves 60% of the population committing the remaining 19% of the murders.

Firearms are what allow the majority of the citizens to protect themselves against those that want to murder.

 

[Bn2f]

They absolutely do.

13% of the population commit 54% of ALL murders. 27% of the population commit 27% of ALL murders. That leaves 60% of the population committing the remaining 19% of the murders.

Firearms are what allow the majority of the citizens to protect themselves against those that want to murder.

And no one needs to treat your racist ass with any measure of respect

 

[Chobham]

And no one needs to treat your racist ass with any measure of respect

Facts don't make anyone a 'racist.' Denial of facts tends to make one an idiot.

 

[beckiefalwell]

One gun almost made us safer.

 

[TomTeacher19]

Facts don't make anyone a 'racist.' Denial of facts tends to make one an idiot.

Pretending that what you have as an opinion is a "fact" makes you an idiot and a jackass, whether you are or are not also a racist.

 

[Bn2f]

Facts don't make anyone a 'racist.' Denial of facts tends to make one an idiot.

No. Don’t mistake my past knowledge of you as addressing any of your so called facts.

 

[beckiefalwell]

And if the Secret Service had done their job and killed the shooter, or subdued him, before he got a shot off no one but him would have been shot. If people in the crowd were pointing him out and saying he had a rifle before shots were fired why didn't the police or SS see him and stop him? Just seems a bit fishy to me.

If the shooter didn't have a gun we wouldn't be having this conversation. You would be whining about some other loser bullshit.

 

[Greytruck]

They make me more safe..

 

[Sean Renaud]

An argument (position) which has to refer to “don’t give a shit” (stating TrailerHitch doesn’t care about the deaths of relatives and friends), “a conservative not giving a fuck about people” and “MAGA” (assuming your condescending reference to half the US that are Republican) loses relavence to those reading it.
On the issue of guns, no one is going to change anyone’s personal opinion, especially by name calling. At one period in our history disagreements were presented rationally, without animosity, name calling and personal attacks.
For your information, your view of conservatives is troubling and inherently false, as these “fly-over”, “deplorables” are god fearing, hard working, flag flying Americans - even some of us New Englanders!

No where near half of Americans are MAGA. Its BARELY close to half Republican. The fucked up EC and Congress give a minority opinion an absurd amount of power. They are God fearing. So stupid. Hard working? Okay. Lets look at the results of their hard work, as in their quality of life on any level so not just flat income. Quality of schools. Health care. Upward mobility. Anything. Why do they settle for a system that doesn't work for them. Oh refer to God fearing. I've had more than my fill of flag flying Americans. For every one who genuinely loves the country or military there are ten who really just hate people of color and it doesn't benefit me to pretend any more that they are good people.

What period of time was it that we presented our ideas rationally, without animosity or personal attacks?