Skinny girls? OR Girls with some meat?

[Ekserb]

Ekserb, why all the anger? Everybody has their weird fetishes. Maybe all those other people on this thread just have a personality fetish. Personally, I can't relate, but to each their own.

The way I interpreted the question was more of a "Scarlett Johanssen" v. "Gwyneth Paltrow" type question, not so much of a "Roseanne Barr" v. "Claudia Schiffer" question. (We all know that 99.99% of people would take Claudia over Roseanne.)

I guess a better way to phrase it is, if you have two women, each considered beautiful by the standards of Western mainstream society, and one is skinny whilst the other is curvaceous, which do you prefer?

I said, personally I like both. I mean, I would totally do young Debbie Harry back in the 70's (skinny), but I'd do Rachel Weisz as well (voluptuous). Maybe if I had some sort of amazing time travel device and a sack full of aphrodesiacs I could do both at the same time! Okay, who's with me?

I'm not angry. I just have a strong opinion and a will to express it.

As for the idea that this is a question along the lines of "Scarlett Johanssen v. Gwyneth Paltrow," I'd happily take Scarlett. Although you know that like every other hot celebrity, somewhere there is a man who is utterly tired of her bullshit. LOL

There is a difference between curvaceous and a BBW. Some guys like the BBWs, while others do not. I happen to think that anyone who lets themselves go that far is only risking heart disease and diabetes, and what person would want to have a relationship with someone who is asking for an untimely death? There are a few pictures on my web site of women I have seen here in Miami that would be called "big girls" based on their size and weight, but they are so dramatically shaped that everyone who has seen the pictures has drooled over these women (myself included). (I won't post those pictures here - it wouldn't be professional, but take a look at ths girl and bring a towel.)

Let me know when you find that time machine.

 

[Vandren]

As I suspected, the men of Lit truly are the only group of men who are immune from the physical charms of women. Apparently these men are so tuned into a woman's personality that they feel absolutely nothing when they look at Playboy, Penthouse, or FHM. (If they do have any copies around the house I'm sure they read the articles and avoid the pictures.)

Funny. Haven't seen anyone claim such an immunity on this thread (although, I must admit, the few Playboy models I've seen uncensored don't turn me on, in part because the first thing I think of when I see their considerably top heavy figures is back pain).

Is it so difficult to accept that people's standards of beauty aren't all 100% the same? Heck, I have friends who don't consider a member of the opposite sex attractive unless they have 3+ tattoos and at least two body piercings. Personally, I find the latter generally unappealing - but this depends on the individual and the piercing.

Is it also so difficult to accept that people's sex drives work differently? Or that people are able to move beyond their sex drive?

You want honesty? So far you've gotten complete 100% honesty from me, at the very least. In your bar scenario, sure, I'd look at the "gorgeous model" first. But, I'd talk to the "average" one first, because I'm more comfortable around "average" women. Additionally, I can name at least 30 female friends whom I've never had a single sexual thought about. some of them are well within TV's standards of beauty, others aren't. The same can be said for, at a guess based on conversations and observations, about 90% of the guys I hang out with. Of course, we're mostly grad students who generally hang out with our colleagues/friends, so that may have something to do with it, but this also includes the guys I hung out with in high school and as an undergrad.

So, to quote someone . . . "go ahead, let me have it for being honest and speaking the truth" based on my own experiences and what I see on a daily basis.

-Van
_______________________________________________________
P.S.

what person would want to have a relationship with someone who is asking for an untimely death?

Two words: Cultural Standards.

Historically, certain things have been considered attractive for cultural reasons:

1) Pale complexions - indicating that the woman is well off and doesn't have to work outside performing manual labor

2) Borderline (or further) obesity - indicating that the individual (male or female) is so wealthy that (s)he is very well fed. This is most common in Asia and sub-Saharan Africa, though it is also heard of in pre-Columbian South and North American cultures. Basically the same reason that many animal species will become "chunky" or whatnot (to show they're great hunters/foragers and thereby attract mates).

 

[Ekserb]

Well, Van, I stand corrected. The generalized points I made about the men and women in a bar were all shot to hell by your personal observations of your friends. Luckily for all the "average" girls out there, there will always be men like you who will chat them up in a social setting when the other 800 men in the bar ignore them. Bully for you!

I'll bet all the lonely women of the world are wondering right now were you have been for their entire lives. Here he is, girls: Your knight in shining armor, taking up the slack for the other 3.3 billion pigs.

I stand by my statements, because they are fact, not opinion, and everyone knows it. Even you said that you would look first at the model, but then talk to the average girl. Not because she was in any way more visually stimulating (which is the very reason you looked first at the other girl), but because for some reason you doubt yourself. Based on your reason I'm going to speculate that you would indeed talk up the prettier one if you felt as comfortable around her as you say you are around average women.

I do, however, envy your ability to emphathize with the models of Playboy. Indeed, how does one think of back pain first when looking at a buxom blond co-ed instead of how her likes and dislikes are so similar to your own? You, my friend, think too much.

 

[Lorali82]

Ekserb, why all the anger? Everybody has their weird fetishes. Maybe all those other people on this thread just have a personality fetish. Personally, I can't relate, but to each their own.

The way I interpreted the question was more of a "Scarlett Johanssen" v. "Gwyneth Paltrow" type question, not so much of a "Roseanne Barr" v. "Claudia Schiffer" question. (We all know that 99.99% of people would take Claudia over Roseanne.)

I guess a better way to phrase it is, if you have two women, each considered beautiful by the standards of Western mainstream society, and one is skinny whilst the other is curvaceous, which do you prefer?

I said, personally I like both. I mean, I would totally do young Debbie Harry back in the 70's (skinny), but I'd do Rachel Weisz as well (voluptuous). Maybe if I had some sort of amazing time travel device and a sack full of aphrodesiacs I could do both at the same time! Okay, who's with me?

I am!

 

[Britwitch]

I can only speak from personal experience...

I'm a larger lady and have to admit I've never been that short of male (and occassionally female ) attention...
I'm now happily married with a guy who, for reasons best known to him, seems to think I'm sexy and beautiful and all the other things I would never label myself as, not because society says someone of my size isn't those things but because I guess I've never really thought about myself in that way...

I always thought my personality was my best quality and while Mr Britwitch admits he came over to talk to me when we first met largely because of my cleavage and face...he stayed because of the way the conversation went...

Just my humble opinion

Btw...I think these kinds of threads only ever cause trouble...there are certain cans of worms that are better left undisturbed...

 

[crazysane]

Talking like a catty woman who's been burned way to much

Different people have different tastes. I doubt someone would wastes their time on a board talking about how attractive they find someone here if they didn't believe it. If I don't find someone attractive, I ignore it.

 

[Vandren]

I stand by my statements, because they are fact, not opinion, and everyone knows it.

Honestly, your argument is hardly convincing. And I'm speaking professionally here. Since the same issues come up in scores of threads around the web, I'll say this publicly.

1) You've already been guilty of self-contradiction and self-paradox in your argument. For instance, you've stated "all" men would go for the "gorgeous model" then noted that some guys prefer BBW (both the plural and singular form). This in and of itself is a paradox - you can 't have it both ways. Either all guys will go for the "gorgeous model" or some won't, the two can't co-exist.

2) These vaunted studies and "facts." This is purely politician speak - that is, stating "studies show" with out pointing to them. This is an elementary argumentative mistake, and shows a lack of critical reading ability. Notably: a) What studies? I've yet to see any indication, say links to them or the titles of the publications they appear in. b) Who funded them? c) Where were they conducted? An American university campus will garner far different results than a street corner in Wuhan, China, for instance. d) What was the size of populace that the experimenters chose? Was it really a representative sample? Recalling that there are nearly 3 billion males in the world and most studies only use 1,000 or fewer subjects in a very targeted area due to time, funding, and capabilities, the chances of a representative sample aren't looking good (that'd be roughly 0.0000003% of the world's male populace per study, possibly 0.0000001% if they use 3,000 subjects). Applying the results of even ten such studies to make generalizations about the entire world doesn't hold water.

A TV show - edited and meant to garner ratings - hardly counts as reliable and reputable. How does the viewer know that certain responses weren't cut out by the producers in order to increase ratings? Or taken out to preserve the results they wanted to see? If there's anything we ought to have learned about "reality" TV since Real World first went on the air, it's that it is anything but "reality." (Besides which, 6 subjects, if that's really how many there were pre-edits, only accounts for 0.000000002% of the world's male populace, hardly what you'd call representative.)

3) Your assumption that everyone who disagrees with you is lying. False assumptions are the downfall of many an otherwise good argument. Goes all the way back to Aristotle's On Rhetoric as one of his false topoi. Cicero brings it up again in On Oratory if I remember correctly. Building out of this issue, any "either/or" statement creates a highly unstable basis/foundation for an argument/position.

your personal observations of your friends.

Which currently stand up better than uncited and nameless (perhaps fictitious) "studies." Prove me wrong. Drop in some links or publication titles - show that they're coming from reputable sources with little to no bias (FHM, Playboy, and Penthouse obviously don't count, since it's in their best interests to "prove" that their models are desirable and what the average person wants to see).

Even you said that you would look first at the model, but then talk to the average girl.

This means nothing, at least not in favor of your argument. Why? Because it's based on false cause/effect (which, incidentally, is also one of Aristotle's false topoi). Basically, you see the effect and have applied an incorrect cause, in the process mistaking noticing something unusual in the environment (survival instinct) for being attracted to it (mating instinct). For example:

1) You walk into a bar currently occupied by two men. The first is 5'7" and 450 lbs. The other is 5'10" and 150 lbs. Which do you notice first? My guess is the 5'7" 450 pounder. By the line of reasoning quoted above, you must be attracted to the 5'7" 450 pounder (and therefore also be gay/bi-). Based on your earlier comments re: BBW, I'm guessing that weight alone would mean you're not attracted to the big guy. Based on your other posts, I'm guessing you're neither gay nor bi-. Therefore, something else must be at work as the cause.

2) Same scenario - "gorgeous model" and "average" woman in the bar - with a twist. This time, in addition to the two women, there's a large orange tabby cat on the bar. Which of the three is going to grab your attention first? Probably the cat, since it is incongruous and doesn't belong, therefore is odd and unusual. Hopefully, you're not sexually attracted to cats, therefore something else is at work as the cause.

In both cases, a survival instinct is at play, causing you to notice unusual things in the environment because they might be potentially dangerous or edible. The relative "attractiveness" of the subject of your gaze doesn't enter into the cause of the gaze.

but because for some reason you doubt yourself. Based on your reason I'm going to speculate that you would indeed talk up the prettier one if you felt as comfortable around her as you say you are around average women.

Nope, no particular doubt (if I had it, I couldn't hold the job I currently have). I've just found that most women I've known whom society considers "gorgeous" have nothing in common to talk about. Not that all "average" women do either, and admittedly some "gorgeous" ones do. But, oh well. I could speculate on the effects of spending one's life in Miami and the effects of the military regarding this subject, but I won't go there.

I do, however, envy your ability to emphathize with the models of Playboy. Indeed, how does one think of back pain first when looking at a buxom blond co-ed instead of how her likes and dislikes are so similar to your own? You, my friend, think too much.

Thinking has nothing to do with it. Having had chronic back problems since I was 17 does. Not to mention family members with similar problems. Not being a fan of disproportionate bodies helps too. As does not being a fan of excessively large chests (see earlier comments re: Pam Anderson and Anna Nicole Smith, then add Jenna Jameson,etc.). Honestly, they don't look in anyway natural and are, therefore, not a turn-on or arousing.

There's also desensitization and job security. The last ball of hormones we had in my workplace was fired for inappropriate behavior less than six months ago. We're surrounded by various young men and women, attractive and otherwise, constantly. In my job, you either a) learn to treat all individuals regardless of looks and gender the same or b) you get a different job. In time, many find themselves mentally stating a perfunctory "she's cute," with no real hormonal reaction behind it, and moving on. The job's one part pedant and one part monk, in some ways.

There are also many many individuals out there who take after Casanova (who, by the way, there is historical evidence for, including evidence of his famed doings). Add to that the number of males, including Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, who have historically been shown not to care much about who they slept with (for Jefferson, power over the partner appears to be the important part, for Franklin, who knows, but one suspects that he went for difficulty and challenge rather than looks based on portraits and his accounts - then again, Franklin's notoriously self-contradictory).

_________________________________________________________________

However, while interesting, this is entirely off the topic which the individuals you've been ranting about were replying to. To bring that back to mind, the original intent was to answer the following questions:

Being an Asian female, I do not understand why American White guys like me. Is it a skinny thing? I am 100 pounds and 5'2." Why is it that African Americans like meat?

And the probable answers ranging from cultural standards to exoticness are likely the "truth," so much as the subjective term means anything. Especially taking into account that "beauty" and "attractiveness" are also incredibly subjective terms.

 

[Ekserb]

Huh, what? Oh, sorry ... I think I fell asleep.

Well, now anyone reading this thread knows you're not only a little weird (what's up with that sword?), but also boring (something I hope to never be). Seriously, I could only imagine myself at a cocktail party listening to you talk and trying to think of a way to get out of the room. Somebody PM me with the key points and I'll give it some thought - I couldn't read the whole thing without drifting off.

Even though I didn't read it, it is impressively long. I had to scroll the window twice to see it all. You must have spent some time writing it, and that's a shame.

 

[pinkstarfish]

I think it's all in the way a girl carries herself.

A woman can be thin and pretty and still be ugly.

A woman can be voluptuous and still be very, very sexy.

I'm 6 months pregnant, but normally quite fit and trim; a size 4-6, sometimes smaller.

There has been little change in the way guys respond to me however, and I think that has less to do with my weight and everything to do with my attitude about myself and toward my sexuality.

 

[pinkstarfish]

...

Are those your eyes?

 

[txnstud21]

I think it's all in the way a girl carries herself.

A woman can be thin and pretty and still be ugly.

A woman can be voluptuous and still be very, very sexy.

I'm 6 months pregnant, but normally quite fit and trim; a size 4-6, sometimes smaller.

There has been little change in the way guys respond to me however, and I think that has less to do with my weight and everything to do with my attitude about myself and toward my sexuality.

i must say thats one sexy av

 

[pinkstarfish]

i must say thats one sexy av

Thank you, Tex.

 

[redlorry]

Has to be the funniest thread on Lit at the moment.

Started out with a slim Asian female asking what men found attractive in her and quickly diversifies into a close-minded debate on "average" versus "model" and "slim" versus "overweight" with quite a few side issues thrown in

Why not go back to that age old adage that for me anyway has always appeared to be nearest the truth "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

 

[Ekserb]

Are those your eyes?

Yes, they are.

 

[txnstud21]

Thank you, Tex.

you are very welcome. i love your lips

 

[pookies]

 

[pinkstarfish]

Yes, they are.

Pluck your eyebrows.

 

[pinkstarfish]

you are very welcome. i love your lips

And they love to be kissed...

 

[slow11000]

I'm skipping over most of the replies, so I apologize if this is redundant, but: Ladies, the physical is such a small part of sexiness. It's all about attitude. Skinny, chubby, average, it doesn't matter. It's all about attitude.

 

[Ekserb]

Pluck your eyebrows.

Normally, I do. This picture was taken before I started.

 

[pookies]

 

[Ekserb]

A male that plucks his eyebrows!! Hmmm!!

I know - a man who takes care of himself and his body is a rare thing on this site. I'm also honest, so take your incredulity and shove it up your ass.

 

[pookies]

 

[Ekserb]

Honest..maybe. Mature, well....

If you're looking for perfection, you've come to the right place ... Vandren is your man.

 

[Vandren]

This is the last I’m going to say on this issue, for various reasons.

Ekserb.

I’m not sure exactly where the focus of the debate/discussion (and I use the terms loosely) shifted, and I really don’t feel like going back and looking for it. The important part, to my reading, is the core issue: your continued insistence that the whole world, all 6 billion people (or even just the 330 million in the U.S.), share your ideal/vision of beauty, despite all evidence to the contrary. And despite the fact that you’ve admitted in passing that this position is wrong (see your comments re: BBW and Handle’s show, etc. previously).

Frankly, such a position is a) naïve, b) jingoist, c) ignorant – in that it shows a lack of knowledge of the wider world – and d) quite frankly immature – Freud, Vygotsky, Luria, and other prominent psychologists have noted that most individuals exit the “I’m the center of the universe” stage of development by the time they reach adulthood.

My final comment . . . look at American sub-cultures (the Goths, African-Americans, Latinos, punks, etc.), look at the last 50+ years of National Geographic, watch a few non-European based shows on Discovery, travel the world outside of Europe.

Honestly, I don’t expect any attention to be paid to this statement, afterall someone who rants about the health dangers of obesity, then lists tanning as a favorite hobby clearly has issues, but I figured I’d try.

-Van

P.S. Nice attempt to dodge criticism you apparently can't take. I've had plenty of 18-19 year olds infinitely more mature than that. Have fun in your own little insular world.