"To keep the review thread clean..."

[twelveoone]

I've got to agree here. It is all artifice.

I've often wondered why so many people seem to expect poetry to be somehow autobiographical and essentially factual. It's as though they see poetry as some sort of prayer that only has power if it is being truthful to god. But why? We are all the creator of our own delusions which are all fictions. Whether god and/or truth exists or not is rather irrelevant because we'll never know. Certainly not this side of the grave. We create our own realites, we create our own truths and we lie all the time. It's all artifice.

Just my humble opinion.

E--'s still running engrams and is behind in his payments to the Church of Poetology.
Out, out of this clam like existence
and tied to a volcano so long ago
Fuck Xenue who looked
like S----- J---
in his forgotten youth.
And that folks
is the lordy truth.

but it costs $500 an hour,
HALF OFF
now for a limited time only $249.75

 

[twelveoone]

weel did my good deed for the day, slapped a bunch of fives, one a gift, and some overdue, what do you bet I will catch flak from somewhere about something, deliberately avoided anything negatory, cause I didn't read 'em, just sayin,
and what did you do today?
just askin...

 

[butters]

bloody hell! a huge thankyou to tsotha for leaving comments/favouriting on so many of my writes. only just found them and wanted to say it's deeply appreciated. and a thanks to TAZZ, too, for their added comments. didn't think anyone read mine any more

 

[pelegrino]

Thanks, 1201, for commenting on "Without Much Ado".
Comments say quite a lot to me. Scoring doesn't.

 

[butters]

twelveoone
ground zero

twelveoone is offline
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,797

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
Finding Love in the Arthur Kill by greenmountaineer
ugly, ugly, ugly

A strong second on this. And an apology for not seeing it sooner.
What would I have changed? Nothing. This is how it was. And it wasn't pretty. Unlike the beauty of the Oranges.
Really now, GM is such a strong poet to have the balls to tackle a dump. Dare I say, I'm sick with envy, or is it, I just remember the smell of the sun coming up in Jersey.
Hey, Kevin Spacy rocks. Hey, GM rocks.

it's fantastic, and i'm planning on commenting soon. so so much to it it's 3-d.

 

[Epmd607]

I've got to agree here. It is all artifice.

I've often wondered why so many people seem to expect poetry to be somehow autobiographical and essentially factual. It's as though they see poetry as some sort of prayer that only has power if it is being truthful to god. But why? We are all the creator of our own delusions which are all fictions. Whether god and/or truth exists or not is rather irrelevant because we'll never know. Certainly not this side of the grave. We create our own realites, we create our own truths and we lie all the time. It's all artifice.

Just my humble opinion.

Bill MOYERS: What is the metaphor?

Joseph CAMPBELL: A metaphor is an image that suggests something else. For instance, if I say to a person, "You are a nut," I'm not suggesting that I think the person is literally a nut. "Nut" is a metaphor. The reference of the metaphor in religious traditions is to something transcendent that is not literally any thing. If you think that the metaphor is itself the reference, it would be like going to a restaurant, asking for the menu, seeing beefsteak written there, and starting to eat the menu.

For example, Jesus ascended to heaven. The denotation would seem to be that somebody ascended to the sky. That’s literally what is being said. But if that were really the meaning of the message, then we have to throw it away, because there would have been no such place for Jesus literally to go. We know that Jesus could not have ascended to heaven because there is no physical heaven anywhere in the universe. Even ascending at the speed of light, Jesus would still be in the galaxy, Astronomy and physics have simply eliminated that as a literal, physical possibility. But if you read "Jesus ascended to heaven" in terms of its metaphoric connotation, you see that he has gone inward – not into outer space but into inward space, to the place from which all being comes, into the consciousness that is the source of all things, the kingdom of heaven within. The images are outward, but their reflection is inward. The point is that we should ascend with him by going inward. It is a metaphor of returning to the source, alpha and omega, of leaving the fixation on the body behind and going to the body’s dynamic source.

MOYERS: Aren’t you undermining one of the great traditional doctrines of the classic Christian faith – that the burial and the resurrection of Jesus prefigures our own?

CAMPBELL: That would be a mistake in the reading of the symbol. That is reading the words in terms of prose instead of in terms of poetry, reading the metaphor in terms of the denotation instead of the connotation.

MOYERS: And poetry gets to the unseen reality.

CAMPBELL: That which is beyond even the concept of reality, that which transcends all thought. The myth puts you there all the time, gives you a line to connect with that mystery which you are.

....
CAMPBELL: All poets. Poetry is a metaphorical language.

MOYERS: A metaphor suggests potential.

CAMPBELL: Yes, but it also sugests the actuality that hides behind the visible aspect. The metaphor is the mask of God through which eternity is to be experienced.

http://mythsdreamssymbols.com/metaphorandtranscendence.html

 

[Angeline]

Bill MOYERS: What is the metaphor?

Joseph CAMPBELL: A metaphor is an image that suggests something else. For instance, if I say to a person, "You are a nut," I'm not suggesting that I think the person is literally a nut. "Nut" is a metaphor. The reference of the metaphor in religious traditions is to something transcendent that is not literally any thing. If you think that the metaphor is itself the reference, it would be like going to a restaurant, asking for the menu, seeing beefsteak written there, and starting to eat the menu.

For example, Jesus ascended to heaven. The denotation would seem to be that somebody ascended to the sky. That’s literally what is being said. But if that were really the meaning of the message, then we have to throw it away, because there would have been no such place for Jesus literally to go. We know that Jesus could not have ascended to heaven because there is no physical heaven anywhere in the universe. Even ascending at the speed of light, Jesus would still be in the galaxy, Astronomy and physics have simply eliminated that as a literal, physical possibility. But if you read "Jesus ascended to heaven" in terms of its metaphoric connotation, you see that he has gone inward – not into outer space but into inward space, to the place from which all being comes, into the consciousness that is the source of all things, the kingdom of heaven within. The images are outward, but their reflection is inward. The point is that we should ascend with him by going inward. It is a metaphor of returning to the source, alpha and omega, of leaving the fixation on the body behind and going to the body’s dynamic source.

MOYERS: Aren’t you undermining one of the great traditional doctrines of the classic Christian faith – that the burial and the resurrection of Jesus prefigures our own?

CAMPBELL: That would be a mistake in the reading of the symbol. That is reading the words in terms of prose instead of in terms of poetry, reading the metaphor in terms of the denotation instead of the connotation.

MOYERS: And poetry gets to the unseen reality.

CAMPBELL: That which is beyond even the concept of reality, that which transcends all thought. The myth puts you there all the time, gives you a line to connect with that mystery which you are.

....
CAMPBELL: All poets. Poetry is a metaphorical language.

MOYERS: A metaphor suggests potential.

CAMPBELL: Yes, but it also sugests the actuality that hides behind the visible aspect. The metaphor is the mask of God through which eternity is to be experienced.

http://mythsdreamssymbols.com/metaphorandtranscendence.html

I think that last bit especially is a great definition of how metaphor works--when it works well--in poetry. I might say "being" or "life" instead of "God" because people have so many different (and potentially negative) narratives attached to the G-word, but that's me. When a metaphor touches a reader it's because he or she is experiencing some universal that is expressed with the words. Imho.

 

[greenmountaineer]

Thanks to Cleardaynow, todski, OldBear, Angie, and 1201 for taking the time to comment on "Finding Love in the Arthur Kill;" added thanks to Angie and 1201 for recommending it in NPR.

 

[pelegrino]

Thanks, 1201, for commenting on "Nasal Reflex Neurosis".
It is more serious than mal practise if you think that the majority of undergraduate courses on psychology still give credit to Freud.

Thanks, Cleardaynow, for commenting on "Without Much Ado". I find your comments always checking my honesty (as well as my art). I appreciate that.

 

[pelegrino]

I think that last bit especially is a great definition of how metaphor works--when it works well--in poetry. I might say "being" or "life" instead of "God" because people have so many different (and potentially negative) narratives attached to the G-word, but that's me. When a metaphor touches a reader it's because he or she is experiencing some universal that is expressed with the words. Imho.

I agree with this comment, I mean with metaphor expressing the "universal" rather than the "eternal".
My opinion is that eternity is quite finite and recyclable, and in any way, that god does not exist.
I do think that we need another thread for this discussion.

 

[Angeline]

I agree with this comment, I mean with metaphor expressing the "universal" rather than the "eternal".
My opinion is that eternity is quite finite and recyclable, and in any way, that god does not exist.
I do think that we need another thread for this discussion.

So start a thread. I am loathe to move any posts at this point because I know it's going to piss off somebody or other, but there's no reason why we can't have a discussion thread. I don't care which forum it is in as long as we all try to keep the main forum poetry oriented. My only concern is that the poem writing threads not get buried in a deluge of general discussion threads.

 

[twelveoone]

Bill MOYERS: What is the metaphor?

Joseph CAMPBELL: A metaphor is an image that suggests something else. For instance, if I say to a person, "You are a nut," I'm not suggesting that I think the person is literally a nut. "Nut" is a metaphor. The reference of the metaphor in religious traditions is to something transcendent that is not literally any thing. If you think that the metaphor is itself the reference, it would be like going to a restaurant, asking for the menu, seeing beefsteak written there, and starting to eat the menu.

For example, Jesus ascended to heaven. The denotation would seem to be that somebody ascended to the sky. That’s literally what is being said. But if that were really the meaning of the message, then we have to throw it away, because there would have been no such place for Jesus literally to go. We know that Jesus could not have ascended to heaven because there is no physical heaven anywhere in the universe. Even ascending at the speed of light, Jesus would still be in the galaxy, Astronomy and physics have simply eliminated that as a literal, physical possibility. But if you read "Jesus ascended to heaven" in terms of its metaphoric connotation, you see that he has gone inward – not into outer space but into inward space, to the place from which all being comes, into the consciousness that is the source of all things, the kingdom of heaven within. The images are outward, but their reflection is inward. The point is that we should ascend with him by going inward. It is a metaphor of returning to the source, alpha and omega, of leaving the fixation on the body behind and going to the body’s dynamic source.

MOYERS: Aren’t you undermining one of the great traditional doctrines of the classic Christian faith – that the burial and the resurrection of Jesus prefigures our own?

CAMPBELL: That would be a mistake in the reading of the symbol. That is reading the words in terms of prose instead of in terms of poetry, reading the metaphor in terms of the denotation instead of the connotation.

MOYERS: And poetry gets to the unseen reality.

CAMPBELL: That which is beyond even the concept of reality, that which transcends all thought. The myth puts you there all the time, gives you a line to connect with that mystery which you are.

....
CAMPBELL: All poets. Poetry is a metaphorical language.

MOYERS: A metaphor suggests potential.

CAMPBELL: Yes, but it also sugests the actuality that hides behind the visible aspect. The metaphor is the mask of God through which eternity is to be experienced.

http://mythsdreamssymbols.com/metaphorandtranscendence.html

Emp, if jesus was god, god could do anything he goddamn wanted, violate space time, anything
sorta like I do when I violate your holy metre. only with me, it is a lot easier, its only text. and there is probably a metaphor behind it. or at least a reason. and you thought it was just incompetence. or just failing to tow your the line.

what's up next? a transcript of Oprah with the guy that lied in his autobiography?
Everything I right is true, I'm flat and black now, I swear to God. Zap him Jesus. And bring my H's back.

 

[twelveoone]

Thanks, 1201, for commenting on "Nasal Reflex Neurosis".
It is more serious than mal practise if you think that the majority of undergraduate courses on psychology still give credit to Freud.

Thanks, Cleardaynow, for commenting on "Without Much Ado". I find your comments always checking my honesty (as well as my art). I appreciate that.

they kind of have to, freud is god

 

[Tsotha]

Hey, let's move the discussion elsewhere.

 

[bogusagain]

Bill MOYERS: What is the metaphor?

I'm not sure what you are getting at in reply to my post. All I said was poetry was artifice. A metaphor is artifice, like all language. Language is made of series of symbols, visual on a page or sound symbols. I is not me, it is a signifier of the object that is me. Artifice. It is all artifice. There is no truth.

 

[pelegrino]

Thanks, 1201, for getting busy with "A Time That Has Been".
Trouble with it is that it started as an instrumental piece (a canon in the 8ve) in 2008 and the verse was written in 2012. My whole idea is to versify something suggested by sound, to dig with words into a non verbal universe.
The verse you refer to is a symbolism (as far as I can grasp it) of the Scorpion Constellation and its brightest star Antares as it appears and signs differently if viewed from different geographical locations (Germany and Greece in this instance).
Two lovers at least are implied, Scorpion and Orion, which can never coexist in any night sky.
Any way, I'm still working on the music, having a very hard time with it.

 

[twelveoone]

Thanks, 1201, for getting busy with "A Time That Has Been".
Trouble with it is that it started as an instrumental piece (a canon in the 8ve) in 2008 and the verse was written in 2012. My whole idea is to versify something suggested by sound, to dig with words into a non verbal universe.
The verse you refer to is a symbolism (as far as I can grasp it) of the Scorpion Constellation and its brightest star Antares as it appears and signs differently if viewed from different geographical locations (Germany and Greece in this instance).
Two lovers at least are implied, Scorpion and Orion, which can never coexist in any night sky.
Any way, I'm still working on the music, having a very hard time with it.

well now that I have an inkling, that is an impressive idea, problem is audience.
However, those four lines stand out, in as far as can apply to any two lovers.

 

[pelegrino]

Thanks, 1201, for comment/suggestion on "Hurricane".
I feel the same way, about it. I had hoped that with a "style modulation" the transition from global to personal would be smoother. Well, it may work with music but it does not with text, it's too rough and clumsy. I will leave it as it stands for the time been, as I have no time for re-considering now, but its time will come to tear it apart.
Now, you really think that the "global" aspect is erudite? I don't really know... I should hope that events leading to the collapse of socialism should be common knowledge by now. Well, they may never be.

 

[normal jean]

Thanks to FridayAm, 1201, Angeline, for her recommendation, and oldbear63, greenmountaineer and Tsotha for your comments and suggestions.

I was stressing with the title and the last line and got some excellent suggestions for improvement. I truly appreciate the help and inspiration I get here.

 

[greenmountaineer]

Thanks to Angeline for having recommended "Singing the Valedictorian Blues" and for her comments as well as those of 1201, Harry, and Tsotha.

The poem was from one of the challenges in PF&D. There is usually a time limit associated with a challenge. I find "chinks in the armor" when I re-visit a poem several months later as was the case here, and I enjoy the editing process as much as I do the original work.

 

[Angeline]

Thanks to Angeline for having recommended "Singing the Valedictorian Blues" and for her comments as well as those of 1201, Harry, and Tsotha.

The poem was from one of the challenges in PF&D. There is usually a time limit associated with a challenge. I find "chinks in the armor" when I re-visit a poem several months later as was the case here, and I enjoy the editing process as much as I do the original work.

I was thinking of starting a 30 edits in 30 days thread because I feel the same as you. I like to go back and tinker. And you did that and both expanded the poem and made it more cohesive imho.

 

[greenmountaineer]

Thanks to Angeline for having recommended "Singing the Valedictorian Blues" and for her comments as well as those of 1201, Harry, and Tsotha.

The poem was from one of the challenges in PF&D. There is usually a time limit associated with a challenge. I find "chinks in the armor" when I re-visit a poem several months later as was the case here, and I enjoy the editing process as much as I do the original work.

I was thinking of starting a 30 edits in 30 days thread because I feel the same as you. I like to go back and tinker. And you did that and both expanded the poem and made it more cohesive imho.

I might actually be interested in that. I shied away from 30 in 30 because I can't write that well on a short lease. Hell, I even had a hard time with Tzara's Weekly Challenge, which makes me think I've got a good 30 in there for your thread, some of which I've already edited.

 

[Tsotha]

I was thinking of starting a 30 edits in 30 days thread because I feel the same as you. I like to go back and tinker. And you did that and both expanded the poem and made it more cohesive imho.

I might actually be interested in that. I shied away from 30 in 30 because I can't write that well on a short lease. Hell, I even had a hard time with Tzara's Weekly Challenge, which makes me think I've got a good 30 in there for your thread, some of which I've already edited.

That's something I'd be interested in — it would be pretty useful to see how others edit their work, with a before / after approach. Maybe even a short explanation of why certain decisions were made?

I'd jump in, editing is long overdue...

 

[Angeline]

That's something I'd be interested in — it would be pretty useful to see how others edit their work, with a before / after approach. Maybe even a short explanation of why certain decisions were made?

I'd jump in, editing is long overdue...

I will start it later tonight. Cookin dinner now.

 

[pelegrino]

Thanks, Magnetron, for commenting on "A Bach Gavotte".
Your first supposition is entirely right. I was actually playing a gavotte by Bach, while thinking of the verse, and… nothing more.