Pink Orchid 2024: Story Event for Women-Centric Erotica - Official Support Thread

[AchtungNight]

My advice for “default gender” classic female characters would be something like Jane Austen’s debutantes or the Brontë sisters’ maids. Modern era female characters are more female detectives or other professions that can be either gender. Good luck.

 

[MelissaBaby]

No, not really, probably because the push for more gender equality or neutrality is more recent.
Would Alice in Wonderland count? I don't really think so, very likely she must be female for the story to work.


Yes, considering that "back in the day" perhaps women weren't encouraged to read (or write, or think).
And perhaps adventure stories such as Treasure Island were a way to begin early recruitment of sailors.

But things are improving. Slowly.
I finally got around to reading The Hunger Games this summer, but Katniss doesn't qualify as "default gender" either.

Perhaps you mean "gender default" in a different wy that I am assuming. I take it to mean that changing the gender of the character would make no substantial difference in the story.

I think "Alfred in Wonderland" would be very different story.

 

[MelissaBaby]

My advice for “default gender” classic female characters would be something like Jane Austen’s debutantes or the Brontë sisters’ maids. Modern era female characters are more female detectives or other professions that can be either gender. Good luck.

Yeah, I think we aren't all using the term the same way.

 

[HordHolm]

I think "Alfred in Wonderland" would be very different story.

It's called the Hobbit

 

[ArdentHemingway]

that YouTube video, could you send me the link

He has a series of videos in which he talks about his experience with writing and I watched a bunch of them over the past month or so.
There was another vlogger I watched some years ago talking about getting published -- I don't recall the name.
Of course, I'm not writing novels, I'm writing short stories.

I think an author can get away with more experimentation in a short story.
First-person POV is an example of something which may be better suited to short stories than novels. Some other counter-examples are The Hunger Games and the first Jack Reacher novel (Killing Floor by Lee Child).
It may be notable that the following twenty or more Jack Reacher novels are third-person POV. I have read the four Hunger Games novels and a dozen or more Jack Reachers since June. And I re-read the seven Harry Potter books before that. Last week I was on a Tony Hillerman binge.
No, I don't read "the classics"; Tolkien and Fleming are about as classic as I can take. And I haven't read Hemingway either, so don't even ask.

Oh, right, I wanted to say that maybe what I was referring to as exposition might be better described as infodumping rather than simple exposition.

Aaaanywaayy... I got no further writing done yesterday afternoon, because I was crafting my responses here. But before bed last night and again this morning, I re-read what I had written yesterday morning, with more of an eye toward seeing exposition and the "telling vs showing" problem within it. It's there, and more than that, because I'm using third-person omniscient, I think I'm using too much omniscience and I will have to pare that back as I review and edit.

 

[ArdentHemingway]

to mean that changing the gender of the character would make no substantial difference in the story.

Yes, that's a major part of what I mean.
As to The Fellowship of the Rings in particular -- why are they all written as male? Wouldn't a modern writer have the plucky band of adventurers be more diverse? Who among the Fellowship _must_ be male? Only Aragorn (marries Arwen), Boromir (due to his relationships with his father and brother), and Sam (marries Rosie)? I wouldn't actually write Merry and Pippin as female, because they are occasionally written as buffoons.

female detectives

Such as Nancy Drew? I agree. I read a bunch of Hardy Boys as a kid, but not Nancy Drew. But it can easily be seen that the genders of the main characters in both sets of stories are probably not critical.
And maybe Remington Steele helped the genre as well?

 

[AchtungNight]

Other good female detectives besides Nancy Drew include Rizzoli & Isles, Rachel Morgan, Stephanie Plum, and some of whom I’m not a fan.

Legolas and Gimli can be swapped to female easily, just be careful you don’t ruin the bromance.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Yes, that's a major part of what I mean.
As to The Fellowship of the Rings in particular -- why are they all written as male? Wouldn't a modern writer have the plucky band of adventurers be more diverse? Who among the Fellowship _must_ be male? Only Aragorn (marries Arwen), Boromir (due to his relationships with his father and brother), and Sam (marries Rosie)? I wouldn't actually write Merry and Pippin as female, because they are occasionally written as buffoons.

So what you are describing is not a neutral gender default, but a status quo in which all characters are by default male unless there is particular need for them to be otherwise.

 

[ArdentHemingway]

not a neutral gender default

all characters are by default male unless there is particular need for them to be otherwise

Right, because we humans don't have a true neutral gender (or not historically anyway), so it falls to "male" (blame the patriarchy!).
When writing SciFi about extraterrestrial characters maybe you can have one. Is Chewbacca gender-free? Are Wookiees even mammalian? Yoda is more of a reptile isn't he?

George Lucas has spoken about the influence of "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" upon his story telling. I haven't read it myself, but I gather that it reviews adventure-type stories going back to the Greeks(?) .
One can see that a "male" adventurer would have been the norm until more recent times, but critical reading may show that the actual gender of the adventurer isn't important in a great many of the stories.
It is unusual to see a reference to a character in such a story masturbating or peeing -- both such activities are mentioned in regard to Roland in The Gunslinger, so he must be male.

I am now recalling the existence of the "Morality Plays" from not too long ago. I recall watching one in which the main character was called "Everyboy", such a character could maybe be better referred to as "Everyyouth".

 

[alohadave]

Right, because we humans don't have a true neutral gender (or not historically anyway), so it falls to "male" (blame the patriarchy!).
When writing SciFi about extraterrestrial characters maybe you can have one. Is Chewbacca gender-free? Are Wookiees even mammalian? Yoda is more of a reptile isn't he?

Alien was written without genders specified. It came down to casting to which character was which gender. And their genders were not a plot point at all.

And in Aliens, there is a bit on-screen about Lambert being MTF trans.

 

[AwkwardMD]

As an aside, Shadiversity is the kind of guy who is upset when Princess Peach wears pants in a movie. I'm sure he has some good points, but be aware that he enshrines traditional gender roles with mythological importance. He might not be the guy.

 

[SimonDoom]

Yes, that's a major part of what I mean.
As to The Fellowship of the Rings in particular -- why are they all written as male? Wouldn't a modern writer have the plucky band of adventurers be more diverse? Who among the Fellowship _must_ be male? Only Aragorn (marries Arwen), Boromir (due to his relationships with his father and brother), and Sam (marries Rosie)? I wouldn't actually write Merry and Pippin as female, because they are occasionally written as buffoons.

Not necessarily if the modern writer is basing his fantasy world on a reimagined version of Medieval Europe, which was highly patriarchal. One would have to imagine a considerably different world where half of Frodo's plucky companions would be female. To some extent that's been done with the recent LOTR-based TV series Rings of Power, where the role of women has been significantly elevated but in part by presenting women (especially in the form of the elf Galadriel) as being just as much kickass warriors as the men.

 

[Omenainen]

Yes, please nobody look at Tolkien for how to write women.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Right, because we humans don't have a true neutral gender (or not historically anyway), so it falls to "male" (blame the patriarchy!).
When writing SciFi about extraterrestrial characters maybe you can have one. Is Chewbacca gender-free? Are Wookiees even mammalian? Yoda is more of a reptile isn't he?

George Lucas has spoken about the influence of "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" upon his story telling. I haven't read it myself, but I gather that it reviews adventure-type stories going back to the Greeks(?) .
One can see that a "male" adventurer would have been the norm until more recent times, but critical reading may show that the actual gender of the adventurer isn't important in a great many of the stories.
It is unusual to see a reference to a character in such a story masturbating or peeing -- both such activities are mentioned in regard to Roland in The Gunslinger, so he must be male.

I am now recalling the existence of the "Morality Plays" from not too long ago. I recall watching one in which the main character was called "Everyboy", such a character could maybe be better referred to as "Everyyouth".

I don't think anyone is calling for stories about genderless aliens. You have made good points about the historical antecedents to modern storytelling But that was then, this is now. I would expect any good writer to populate their stories with nuanced characters regardless of gender.

 

[MillieDynamite]

While pink is a color associated with women, purple is the color for lesbians. Just thought I'd say that, it's been running round in my brain.

Genderless Aliens, oh my!

I don't think anyone is calling for stories about genderless aliens.

 

[ArdentHemingway]

casting to which character was which gender

I haven't watched it, but that's good. Having said that...
"Ripley is introduced as a warrant officer aboard the Nostromo, a spaceship en route to Earth from Thedus. Having been placed in stasis for the long journey home..."
Then what would Ripley's personal grooming routine be like in that time and place? Maybe not like a woman here in the U.S. or U.K. today.

I think I watched only the first episode of the recent Battlestar Galactica, with the female Starbuck. I'm OK with the gender swap, but I'm unsure it had any real purpose. What lost me though was that in one scene Starbuck is seen working on a fighter and my brain interrupted, saying, "hey, why does Starbuck shave her armpits?" She's not an Earth-based female in our current "developed nations", right? Maybe people in her culture don't grow underarm hair? Dunno. It just seemed to me that a female Starbuck (probably all "human" characters in her culture) would have hairy underarms and legs -- otherwise, don't show them at all.
I suppose the creator of the Battlestar Galactica universe would have to weigh in on that.

When having an actress from our culture playing a character from a different culture, there may be times when such details may be noticed.
Another movie I just watched (from 2007) shows a young woman in Liverpool in the early 60s with shaved underarms -- is that realistic for that time and place and her social situation? Dunno. Better to have the character wearing a top with sleeves and avoid the whole mess.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Katee Sackhoff is so sexy. She be best-groomed bitch in the fleet. Don't fuck with the Starbuck, bro!

I haven't watched it, but that's good. Having said that...
"Ripley is introduced as a warrant officer aboard the Nostromo, a spaceship en route to Earth from Thedus. Having been placed in stasis for the long journey home..."
Then what would Ripley's personal grooming routine be like in that time and place? Maybe not like a woman here in the U.S. or U.K. today.

I think I watched only the first episode of the recent Battlestar Galactica, with the female Starbuck. I'm OK with the gender swap, but I'm unsure it had any real purpose. What lost me though was that in one scene Starbuck is seen working on a fighter and my brain interrupted, saying, "hey, why does Starbuck shave her armpits?" She's not an Earth-based female in our current "developed nations", right? Maybe people in her culture don't grow underarm hair? Dunno. It just seemed to me that a female Starbuck (probably all "human" characters in her culture) would have hairy underarms and legs -- otherwise, don't show them at all.
I suppose the creator of the Battlestar Galactica universe would have to weigh in on that.

When having an actress from our culture playing a character from a different culture, there may be times when such details may be noticed.
Another movie I just watched (from 2007) shows a young woman in Liverpool in the early 60s with shaved underarms -- is that realistic for that time and place and her social situation? Dunno. Better to have the character wearing a top with sleeves and avoid the whole mess.

Besides that, they want her to pull in the men viewers, and men don't like hairy armpits.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I haven't watched it, but that's good. Having said that...
"Ripley is introduced as a warrant officer aboard the Nostromo, a spaceship en route to Earth from Thedus. Having been placed in stasis for the long journey home..."
Then what would Ripley's personal grooming routine be like in that time and place? Maybe not like a woman here in the U.S. or U.K. today.

I think I watched only the first episode of the recent Battlestar Galactica, with the female Starbuck. I'm OK with the gender swap, but I'm unsure it had any real purpose. What lost me though was that in one scene Starbuck is seen working on a fighter and my brain interrupted, saying, "hey, why does Starbuck shave her armpits?" She's not an Earth-based female in our current "developed nations", right? Maybe people in her culture don't grow underarm hair? Dunno. It just seemed to me that a female Starbuck (probably all "human" characters in her culture) would have hairy underarms and legs -- otherwise, don't show them at all.
I suppose the creator of the Battlestar Galactica universe would have to weigh in on that.

When having an actress from our culture playing a character from a different culture, there may be times when such details may be noticed.
Another movie I just watched (from 2007) shows a young woman in Liverpool in the early 60s with shaved underarms -- is that realistic for that time and place and her social situation? Dunno. Better to have the character wearing a top with sleeves and avoid the whole mess.

Katee Sackoff has spoken numerous times about how closely producers monitored her workouts, diet, and presentation in order to present a very specific kind of strong that wasn’t too masculine. She couldn’t get too muscular. They relied on moments of her smoking a cigar or questioning a superior's orders to define her badassdom. As I understand it, she wanted to be jacked, and was repeatedly told no.

Be wary of letting that studio interference about optics, with regard to the expectations of a modern audience, color your grasp of the *writing*.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Katie can toss her heels under my bed any night she wants. I hope Jo doesn't read this.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I haven't watched it, but that's good. Having said that...
"Ripley is introduced as a warrant officer aboard the Nostromo, a spaceship en route to Earth from Thedus. Having been placed in stasis for the long journey home..."
Then what would Ripley's personal grooming routine be like in that time and place? Maybe not like a woman here in the U.S. or U.K. today.

There's no shaving in a stasis pod.

 

[Omenainen]

There's no shaving in a stasis pod.

So every male should have a Santa Claus beard?

 

[HordHolm]

So every male should have a Santa Claus beard?

Laser depilation.

 

[ArdentHemingway]

There's no shaving in a stasis pod.

Yeah and probably no hair and nail growth unless the pod misbehaves.
On the other hand, if it's a matter of, "you'll age only about a month on this year-long transit", then, I would expect a month's hair and nail growth at the end.
Unlike when being frozen in carbonite.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Katie Sackoff has been muscled for years since the end of Battlestar. Still, one fine bitch!

Katee Sackoff has spoken numerous times about how closely producers monitored her workouts, diet, and presentation in order to present a very specific kind of strong that wasn’t too masculine. She couldn’t get too muscular. They relied on moments of her smoking a cigar or questioning a superior's orders to define her badassdom. As I understand it, she wanted to be jacked, and was repeatedly told no.

Be wary of letting that studio interference about optics, with regard to the expectations of a modern audience, color your grasp of the *writing*.

 

[ArdentHemingway]

men don't like hairy armpits.

Well, I mean, some of us do, but maybe not many, and it's maybe too fetish.
By the same token, in some cases, showing a woman's (shaved) armpit may be meant as perhaps the limit allowed for a particular rating. Armpits are frequently covered and can be considered among the "private parts" in some situations.
Women's beach volleyball is popular with men for a reason.

the expectations of a modern audience

Which accepts that expectations will change over time. A hundred years or so ago, women's armpits (and maybe even ankles?) wouldn't have been shown at all?

There exists at least one female vlogger/documenter who has recently been actively going against "the patriarchal ideal of feminine beauty" (my words) -- I think she said something about boycotting the cosmetics industry, but she goes beyond that.
In another hundred years, maybe more women will have taken back their bodies to the extent that unshaved armpits will be common on women.
Maybe by the time we get to Star Trek, Uhura will have hairy pits.

Oh, plus: Free The Nipple!