Do guns make us more safe?

[Sean Renaud]

As a general rule laws work. Sure there are some exceptions. Technically if you piss in the bushes you're a sex offender. We've all jaywalked. I'd bet most of us have stolen intentionally or not. I like spinny things, key chains, scissors, fidget spinners. I know at least once probably more I've been walking around Walmart spinning something while I shopped and realized when I got to the car that I still had it.

Whether or not Israeli gun laws contributed to the slaughter is only true in a very theoretical way. Like I'm pretty sure nobody at a concert would be packing even if they legally could. As for the people at home.

The older I get the more anti-gun I am.

 

[phrodeau]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/second-amendment-fanatic-gun-violence_n_6505e5a7e4b045a142a4c2a0

 

[phrodeau]

The 4-year-old son of a Baptist pastor found a loaded gun in their car, and shot his younger brother in the head.

https://www.wyff4.com/amp/article/pastors-son-shot-outside-church-by-brother/45557776

 

[Bray123]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/second-amendment-fanatic-gun-violence_n_6505e5a7e4b045a142a4c2a0

I asked what he thought about “red flag” laws that allow for temporary removal of firearms when a gun owner is determined to pose a risk for harming themself or others. Rick didn’t support these types of laws because he doesn’t trust the process.

I sometimes look at arguments for/against by considering an extreme position. If people should not be prevented from having a gun just because they're a risk to themselves or others, why not allow prisoners in Rikers to keep guns in their cells. Oh, that would be risky? Well, no shit.

Efforts to tackle military and veteran suicide by addressing access to firearms? No, he sees suicide as an individual decision.

People can be so kind and caring. Why not provide every person who is considering suicide with a ceiling hook and a length of rope? Just think of the money it would save in health care. Hell, every prison cell could be equipped with these as well, along with the rifle.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Jokes aside the problem with red flag laws is that it could be used against people and probably would.

 

[butters]

Multiple People Shot at Grocery Store in Georgia​

a drive-by shooting in a carpark outside a grocery store

*sigh*
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...31&cvid=12bf6fb42418456befb5b7e07b35e632&ei=8

 

[CuriousRick]

Yes because if we had stricter guns laws criminals would obey them.

 

[TrailerHitch]

This isn't about DUI's dummy. I used the example of DUI's laws to prove laws work.They do, statistics prove this.

Think what you want about the rest, you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer Hitch. I'm just trying to help you understand that the course you're following doesn't have the ending you want.




*chuckles*

Of course it doesn't end the way I want because the liberal fascists will push and push and push until the revolution they desire breaks out and the outcome they believe will occur is that the military will step up and slaughter American citizens in securing the end of freedom and the beginning of approved tyranny. Kind of reminiscent of every other tyrannical government in history. The first stage is always disarm the population. The problem is here I don't see many at all complying with that. Thus begins calls for military action.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Yes because if we had stricter guns laws criminals would obey them.

Honestly most likely they would. ITs amazing how people think real life criminals stepped out of a Gotham City.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Yes because if we had stricter guns laws criminals would obey them.

So what is your answer? I've seen you throw out the "laws don't work line" enough. What's your solutions. I should point out, answering the status quo, is not acceptable.

My prediction is he won't answer for two reasons, one the last time we debated, he got so pissed off he put me on ignore when his point kept getting shot down. Second, because he doesn't have any answers....just like most of the other mouth breathers who say laws don't work....

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Of course it doesn't end the way I want because the liberal fascists will push and push and push until the revolution they desire breaks out and the outcome they believe will occur is that the military will step up and slaughter American citizens in securing the end of freedom and the beginning of approved tyranny.

Maybe try breaking this sentence up. It's a run on sentence. You should have learned that in grade 9.

Kind of reminiscent of every other tyrannical government in history. The first stage is always disarm the population. The problem is here I don't see many at all complying with that. Thus begins calls for military action.

The above has a much better sentence structure, did you get some help?

Note: there is little sense explaining that it's the minority of gun owners in the States who will not comply with the law. That concept is obviously above his level of intellect.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Yes because if we had stricter guns laws criminals would obey them.

That's absolutely ludicrous and yet fucking hysterical at the same time. You are delusional.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Honestly most likely they would. ITs amazing how people think real life criminals stepped out of a Gotham City.

You are delusional. Show evidence that they obey gun laws now to support this ridiculous statement.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Maybe try breaking this sentence up. It's a run on sentence. You should have learned that in grade 9.

The above has a much sentence structure, did you get some help?

Note: there is little sense explaining that it's the minority of gun owners in the States who will not comply with the law. That concept is obviously above his level of intellect.

You are a joke. You can't debate what I post so you resort to pretending to be an English teacher.

You know it will be a minority because you have polling evidence to prove this? Right? You must be able to document some ridiculous stats showing gun owners will roll over as if they were liberals. Funny stuff, that is unprovable.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Of course it doesn't end the way I want because the liberal fascists will push and push and push until the revolution they desire breaks out and the outcome they believe will occur is that the military will step up and slaughter American citizens in securing the end of freedom and the beginning of approved tyranny. Kind of reminiscent of every other tyrannical government in history. The first stage is always disarm the population. The problem is here I don't see many at all complying with that. Thus begins calls for military action.

This is a flat out lie. Most of the countries that got taken over by tyrants were disarmed so far before that person and his people were even on anybody's radar. Hitler actually loosened the gun laws passed by the Wiemar Republic. While I know like all conservatives you don't genuinely give a shit how many people die but if I had to cash my checks and run to the store before my money isn't enough for a loaf of bread would encourage me to use a gun and steal what I need real quick.

In Japan its hard to get a gun and they are not ruled by a tyrant by any stretch of the imagination. China has been disarmed for so fucking long the people learned how to use all sorts of things that could easily double as farming equipment. Its only been relatively recently that they've been under a tyrant. I could list more and more but this is the lie the gun nuts feed us without really being able to name examples.

The reality is state by state or country by country we can prove that gun laws do work by the way. Statistically you are safer in Chicago than Kansas. Hell living anywhere in what we would call fly over country especially in the south is just dangerous.

Part of the reason is that arms races between cops, criminals, other criminals and just people wanting to protect themselves and their families works the exact same way for individuals as it does for a country. If the other guy is likely to have a gun, you need a gun. If you can be reasonably certain the person at worst has a knife or a bat that is all you need. France is actually a great example of that. I'm sure everybody remembers when Islamic terrorists attacked that one I believe it was a magazine office. The cops had to call the French version of SWAT because the rank and file police don't carry guns. Also you don't have to love France BUT calling that country a dictatorship is an enormous leap of logic here.

Nobody wants a revolution/Civil War though we are starting to see people on the right heavily implying and sometimes outright saying its going to happen. Hell I believe it was Tucker Carlson who was interviewing Trump and kept circling back to the Left can't beat Trump was he worried they would just kill him? To Trump's credit he danced skillfully around that question. Eventually when enough people who hold positions of influence start talking eventually someone jumps off and does something dumb.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

You are a joke. You can't debate what I post so you resort to pretending to be an English teacher.

Yawn...More blather. Look you set your rules of engagement, I don't give a fuck what you think or say anymore.

Of course you do, otherwise why reply? *chuckles*

You know it will be a minority because you have polling evidence to prove this?

Actually there is polling evidence. Now the poll does not ask directly a question such as, "if a law to ban X was implemented, would you obey the law"?

However you can extrapolate an answer that would give an idea of the complacence ratio percentage, based upon the percentages of answers to poll questions that are similar. For example if you asked "in terms of gun laws in the United States, which of the following would prefer to see happen. Enforce the current gun laws, and NOT pass new gun laws. Or pass new gun laws in addition to enforcing the current laws"



By using questions like that, you will find that almost 60% would comply. But this is only one question, when you look at a bunch of others ( and I am not about to go through the whole poll, you can do that on your own) you can see that if a ban came in place 60-80% of the population would comply. That leaves the other 20% and my gut feeling is half them would cave in, maybe not at the beginning, but eventually when they realise they can't play with their toys anymore

Right? You must be able to document some ridiculous stats showing gun owners will roll over as if they were liberals. Funny stuff, that is unprovable.

Unprovable, no not really, statistics, you know Math, another school subject I doubt you are proficient in.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

 

[Sean Renaud]

You are delusional. Show evidence that they obey gun laws now to support this ridiculous statement.

That's actually gonna be difficult to prove in a way someone like you would accept however unless you think its a complete coincidence why the South east has per capita way more gun violence than places in the west or north east. Unless you think criminals basically don't exist in Europe almost all of them have lower gun violence and lower suicide. So unless Americans are just uniquely evil clearly the laws work.

While nobody serious is talking about gun confiscation, the Right constantly brings up that we have more guns than people. The reality is there is no way of accurately saying how many guns are in the country. Some are obviously illegally smuggled in. We have to believe that there are some people with good 3d printers. There are also guns in places that experiences fires, floods or are outright neglectful. My grandfather had a shotgun but as he got older he didn't really take care of it and an attic in Cleveland can get quite moist. Long story short that gun is so rusted that its not a gun. It's awkward club where you might as well grab a baseball bad at least that's balanced for clubbing. Oh and that's not even accounting for people who committed a crime and threw the gun in the nearest body of water so the cops won't find it.

I am not claiming there are more or fewer guns than we think just that any number we hear, especially if counting in the hands of everyday citizens, not the warehouse all the various guns in the military and even how they designate a gun. Is an XM-218 a gun? Yes, yes it is. However outside of an action movie staring Arnold in his prime nobody is walking around firing that thing. To big, to heavy and full auto .50 cal is more gun than a normal person can use.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

This is a flat out lie.

It not a lie, Sean, it's his and many other gun nut's "fantasy".

 

[TrailerHitch]

This is a flat out lie. Most of the countries that got taken over by tyrants were disarmed so far before that person and his people were even on anybody's radar. Hitler actually loosened the gun laws passed by the Wiemar Republic. While I know like all conservatives you don't genuinely give a shit how many people die but if I had to cash my checks and run to the store before my money isn't enough for a loaf of bread would encourage me to use a gun and steal what I need real quick.

In Japan its hard to get a gun and they are not ruled by a tyrant by any stretch of the imagination. China has been disarmed for so fucking long the people learned how to use all sorts of things that could easily double as farming equipment. Its only been relatively recently that they've been under a tyrant. I could list more and more but this is the lie the gun nuts feed us without really being able to name examples.

The reality is state by state or country by country we can prove that gun laws do work by the way. Statistically you are safer in Chicago than Kansas. Hell living anywhere in what we would call fly over country especially in the south is just dangerous.

Part of the reason is that arms races between cops, criminals, other criminals and just people wanting to protect themselves and their families works the exact same way for individuals as it does for a country. If the other guy is likely to have a gun, you need a gun. If you can be reasonably certain the person at worst has a knife or a bat that is all you need. France is actually a great example of that. I'm sure everybody remembers when Islamic terrorists attacked that one I believe it was a magazine office. The cops had to call the French version of SWAT because the rank and file police don't carry guns. Also you don't have to love France BUT calling that country a dictatorship is an enormous leap of logic here.

Nobody wants a revolution/Civil War though we are starting to see people on the right heavily implying and sometimes outright saying its going to happen. Hell I believe it was Tucker Carlson who was interviewing Trump and kept circling back to the Left can't beat Trump was he worried they would just kill him? To Trump's credit he danced skillfully around that question. Eventually when enough people who hold positions of influence start talking eventually someone jumps off and does something dumb.

Hitler loosened gun laws for Nazi party members. He never loosened gun laws for Jews and what he deemed other undesirables. But then apparently you seem to be okay with that. What other things that Hitler did do you support?

So you admit to having sociopathic tendencies. Nice, a red flag law would have you arrested and if you possessed any firearms them taken away. In your mind you are able to justify using a gun to rob someone, admitting planned criminal behavior. Where as my guns are for recreational shooting and self defense. yet you claim I am the danger. Interesting how you think.

I don't care if you have a gun or not. If you attack me with a knife, a baseball bat, a shovel, a walking stick or anything else and I am unable to retreat to safety I will shoot you until you stop. Count on it. Retreat and evade until I can't, then I will defend myself. There is no honor or glory in being a dead victim just because you didn't have a gun.

So you seriously don't believe China is a tyrannical government? I'm sorry but you are too stupid to even comment on this topic anymore.

I never said I wanted a civil war, but if a tyrannical government starts fucking with the Constitution don't be surprised if it comes.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Fair point, regardless its not based in any solid form of reality.

Hitler loosened gun laws for Nazi party members. He never loosened gun laws for Jews and what he deemed other undesirables. But then apparently you seem to be okay with that. What other things that Hitler did do you support?

So you admit to having sociopathic tendencies. Nice, a red flag law would have you arrested and if you possessed any firearms them taken away. In your mind you are able to justify using a gun to rob someone, admitting planned criminal behavior. Where as my guns are for recreational shooting and self defense. yet you claim I am the danger. Interesting how you think.

I don't care if you have a gun or not. If you attack me with a knife, a baseball bat, a shovel, a walking stick or anything else and I am unable to retreat to safety I will shoot you until you stop. Count on it. Retreat and evade until I can't, then I will defend myself. There is no honor or glory in being a dead victim just because you didn't have a gun.

So you seriously don't believe China is a tyrannical government? I'm sorry but you are too stupid to even comment on this topic anymore.

I never said I wanted a civil war, but if a tyrannical government starts fucking with the Constitution don't be surprised if it comes.

That's the thing, when a country comes for all or most of the guns is entirely different from when they come for a specific group(s) of people. That should be a dead giveaway of the game when you notice that all the ethnic Germans are getting more rights while you are getting rights taken away. Oh and being forced to wear clothing that Identifies you so you don't try to blend in.

Interesting how facts work and how most people think. Given a choice between starvation and becoming a criminal its not a real choice. If your job literally isn't enough to put food on the table you're naturally going to get angry and take action. This is part of why the Jews were targeted because while they weren't all rich due to laws in both Christianity and Islam that are not present in Judaism of course they ran the banks.

I didn't say China is not a tyrannical government. Did you fucking read? I said they've had their weapons taken away for so long that you can't call the banning of many, many weapons as the first step to tyranny. If something my greatx5 grandfather leads to something that eventually causes me to become a billionaire you can't claim that was the plan all along.

The Constitution is so old and fucked up that eventually we can and should start fucking with it as you say. If the risk leads to a Civil War, said war was always destined.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Fair point, regardless its not based in any solid form of reality.


That's the thing, when a country comes for all or most of the guns is entirely different from when they come for a specific group(s) of people. That should be a dead giveaway of the game when you notice that all the ethnic Germans are getting more rights while you are getting rights taken away. Oh and being forced to wear clothing that Identifies you so you don't try to blend in.

Interesting how facts work and how most people think. Given a choice between starvation and becoming a criminal its not a real choice. If your job literally isn't enough to put food on the table you're naturally going to get angry and take action. This is part of why the Jews were targeted because while they weren't all rich due to laws in both Christianity and Islam that are not present in Judaism of course they ran the banks.

I didn't say China is not a tyrannical government. Did you fucking read? I said they've had their weapons taken away for so long that you can't call the banning of many, many weapons as the first step to tyranny. If something my greatx5 grandfather leads to something that eventually causes me to become a billionaire you can't claim that was the plan all along.

The Constitution is so old and fucked up that eventually we can and should start fucking with it as you say. If the risk leads to a Civil War, said war was always destined.

I believe you said you are not a gun owner, where I obviously am, yet you can see a point where you would use a gun to commit a criminal act, and I can't. When my one paycheck couldn't pay the bills, and my then wife wouldn't work, I did what any guy should do, I picked up some side jobs, including some cash work. I never even considered robbing someplace to pay the bills. So a non-gun owner would use a gun to commit a crime and a gun owner doesn't even consider it. It seems a bit bizarre some how.

I have huge respect for the Chinese that stood up an Tiananmen Square. No weapons just balls the size of basketballs. Standing alone, unarmed, in front of a Chinese tank that the only reason it didn't run him over was the world was watching.

You may see the Constitution as old and fucked up, while myself and others see it as the greatest document ever written.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I believe you said you are not a gun owner, where I obviously am, yet you can see a point where you would use a gun to commit a criminal act, and I can't. When my one paycheck couldn't pay the bills, and my then wife wouldn't work, I did what any guy should do, I picked up some side jobs, including some cash work. I never even considered robbing someplace to pay the bills. So a non-gun owner would use a gun to commit a crime and a gun owner doesn't even consider it. It seems a bit bizarre some how.

I have huge respect for the Chinese that stood up an Tiananmen Square. No weapons just balls the size of basketballs. Standing alone, unarmed, in front of a Chinese tank that the only reason it didn't run him over was the world was watching.

You may see the Constitution as old and fucked up, while myself and others see it as the greatest document ever written.

My family has guns but none are legally mind and might never be. Yeah, the thing is the way Hyper Inflation works is that working a second or third job assuming you can even handle that for more than a few months. I've never seen someone work 80 hours a week without burning out pretty quick. Now if you are working two jobs but you're only getting between 30 and 50 hours you aren't really working "two jobs" you just have two locations since neither is giving you full time. Anyway with inflation they way it was by the time you worked your second job the check from your first one was pretty much worthless so good luck with that one. This isn't like modern America where between social programs, minimum wages and pretty decent protections for worker at least by historical standards. This was a fucking disaster. One that very few nations have ever repeated. Zimbabwe being the best example of it.

I have respect for the men of Tianamen Square but not a whole lot for the Chinese as a whole. No small group can hold on to power without the consent of the governed. Now I'm not an expert on Chinese Culture over all but it seems like At the end of the day the Chinese prefer stability over basically anything else. They can tolerate quite a bit if they can be relatively certain no huge jarring changes occur.

The Constitution and the things it embodies are so deeply rooted in racism and slavery that slavery has been over for well over a century and a half and we are STILL getting punished for the original sin. There is also the fact that it is so difficult to alter that really the only time people really bring up the Constitution is because they know they are wrong BUT since I can't take it up with Madison or Hamilton I lose. Which is funny. People who proud claim this to be the land of the free surrender their self determination not to a man with a gun but to a dead man. The rest of the time we flat out ignore what its. If we followed the Constitution as written CA and NY would be picking the presidents by themselves fuck the rest of yall. But we decided pretty much arbitrarily to cap the House at 435. Which is flat out unconstitutional but nobody cares.

Honestly considering how difficult it is to get five people to agree on where to eat or what kind of pizza to order is it any wonder that 435 people have such a difficult time getting even the basics done much less anything as complex as health care or foreign policy? OF course not. Its a flawed document written by flawed men. That's not me claiming we are perfect, I would make and argument as whole we are more noble than they were but that has nothing to do with the document. Nothing absolutely nothing lasts 250+ years and still works as advertized. That's just not realistic.

 

[TomTeacher19]

If you claim to love the Constitution but miss that one of the essential and best parts of it is that it was written specifically to be able to be changed to improve and adjust with the times (like if maybe you didn't want to treat women as second class citizens or blacks as animals or wanted to prohibit alcohol or then changed your mind about that or realized that your musket in the closet isn't the same as your automatic weapon arsenal or that when you have the world's best military you won't need well regulated militias, etc., etc.), then you don't love the Constitution at all - you don't even understand or appreciate it in the slightest.

 

[schism666]

If you claim to love the Constitution but miss that one of the essential and best parts of it is that it was written specifically to be able to be changed to improve and adjust with the times (like if maybe you didn't want to treat women as second class citizens or blacks as animals or wanted to prohibit alcohol or then changed your mind about that or realized that your musket in the closet isn't the same as your automatic weapon arsenal or that when you have the world's best military you won't need well regulated militias, etc., etc.), then you don't love the Constitution at all - you don't even understand or appreciate it in the slightest.

great fucking post that they will have an impossible time to refute. they'll try to misdirection and deflection but the smart people know you're on point.

 

[HisArpy]

If you claim to love the Constitution but miss that one of the essential and best parts of it is that it was written specifically to be able to be changed to improve and adjust with the times (like if maybe you didn't want to treat women as second class citizens or blacks as animals or wanted to prohibit alcohol or then changed your mind about that or realized that your musket in the closet isn't the same as your automatic weapon arsenal or that when you have the world's best military you won't need well regulated militias, etc., etc.), then you don't love the Constitution at all - you don't even understand or appreciate it in the slightest.

Two things here;

1. You love the Constitution so much you want to change it into something else? That's like saying you love someone but only if they're someone else.

2. There's a mechanism for changing the Constitution. Unfortunately for you, that's not done by proclaiming loudly that we need more gun control.