Has the "Bear vs. Man" conundrum made you reconsider your writings?

[ElectricBlue]

I should have realised from the title that this thread would have legs. And animal savagery.

I dunno. Tik Tok, Mortal Kombat and The Simpsons - beats Camus and Sartre, surely?

 

[AchtungNight]

Not every woman gets harassed. Or goes to such lengths to point out the frustration of such things.

You are unnecessarily making this bad situation worse. Please stop. If you wish to retain any respect.

If I knew appropriate quotes from other sources maybe I would have used them.

 

[KatieDoes]

Not every woman gets harassed. Or goes to such lengths to point out the frustration of such things.

You are unnecessarily making this bad situation worse. Please stop. If you wish to retain any respect.

If I knew appropriate quotes from other sources maybe I would have used them.

Every single woman has been harassed.

Every. Single. Woman. Your mom, your sister, your daughter, your grandmother. All of them have at least one instance in their life been in a situation where they feared their safety due to the behavior of a man.

If you think that the women in your life have never been harassed, it’s because they don’t trust you enough to tell you about it.

When men talk over us, dismiss our concerns, invalidate our experiences, and show more concern with protecting men’s feelings than women’s physical safety, we know that they aren’t someone who we can’t share our stories with.

So we don’t.

 

[SimonDoom]

Well, this thread went the usual AH direction-- completely off the rails! Circling back to @BobbyBrandt 's original post, I'm curious what the question is, for purposes of stories. Is the question whether, when writing stories, the fear that many women have of encountering a strange man is something that should be taken into account? That appears to be what the OP is getting at. Once again, as we always seem to do, we deviate into discussions about what things are like "in the real world" and whether someone else's view of that is reasonable. But I think the original question was whether the fear women have of strange men is something that should be factored into stories.

I think the answer, as it always is, is that it depends on the story. What are the circumstances? What's the situation? What is the female character like?

Many of my stories involve people pushing boundaries and taking risks, such as engaging in public nudity. That's the kind of thing that raises OP's issue, because it involves women making themselves vulnerable. Being mindful of common fears is a way of lending verisimilitude to a story, as well as erotic tension. On the other hand, if there's too much fear, it might spoil the fun of the story. I'm working on a story where a woman is naked in front of men who are clothed, and it's an issue. If I dodged the OP's issue entirely, then I think the story wouldn't be as realistic and I would get some eye rolls. I'll probably get eye rolls anyway. But my purpose in writing an erotic story is not to minimize eye rolls. I write knowing that people have wildly different ideas about what's plausible.

There's no right answer. It depends on the story.

 

[Otis_Ravelli]

Not every woman gets harassed. Or goes to such lengths to point out the frustration of such things.

You are unnecessarily making this bad situation worse. Please stop. If you wish to retain any respect.

If I knew appropriate quotes from other sources maybe I would have used them.

As @KatieDoes says every woman has been harassed at some point in their lives and the reason they don't go to such lengths to point out the frustration of such things is that when they do some man will rock up saying "That's terrible, but not all men are like that" as though they might not have considered that it or that it makes any difference to what's happened to them.

It's like telling someone you were bitten by a black widow and they respond with "Well, not all spiders are dangerous" rather than reaching for an antivenom. It may well be true but it has fuck all to do with anything that has just happened or what they have suffered.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Any real change in this is going to come from men calling out and actively preventing the bad behaviour of other men to try and create a world where women can be less afraid. Not lecturing women that they should be giving men a chance to prove they're "one of the good ones" and if they don't anything that happens to them is their own fault.

Except the 'man who is worse than a bear' is always going to exist. Regardless of any attempts I make and may have already have made to enact social change, a lone woman should always have a degree of caution around a lone man. It's not a game that's ever going to be won. No one is ever going to put out a 'mission accomplished' banner. Things can get better and, at a macro-level, over the past hundred years, have been getting better.

And I say this as someone who has experienced someone I cared deeply about being a victim of sexual assault and having been able to do no more than listen to her. And also as someone who has stepped in to stop a physical assault of a woman by a man.

 

[Otis_Ravelli]

Except the 'man who is worse than a bear' is always going to exist. Regardless of any attempts I make and may have already have made to enact social change, a lone woman should always have a degree of caution around a lone man. It's not a game that's ever going to be won. No one is ever going to put out a 'mission accomplished' banner. Things can get better and, at a macro-level, over the past hundred years, have been getting better.

And I say this as someone who has experienced someone I cared deeply about being a victim of sexual assault and having been able to do no more than listen to her. And also as someone who has stepped in to stop a physical assault of a woman by a man.

Will the problem ever truly be solved? I honestly have no idea but I do know that any long term macro change the has already happened has been driven a thousands of micro changes on the way. I can't fix the world but I can go out of my way to not make it any worse.

 

[Trionyx]

A little study you can do at your leisure: When driving your car, look at any walker or runner coming towards you. Then keep track of how many men look up at you versus how many women. The majority of men do and the vast majority of women don’t.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Well, this thread went the usual AH direction-- completely off the rails! Circling back to @BobbyBrandt 's original post, I'm curious what the question is, for purposes of stories. Is the question whether, when writing stories, the fear that many women have of encountering a strange man is something that should be taken into account? That appears to be what the OP is getting at. Once again, as we always seem to do, we deviate into discussions about what things are like "in the real world" and whether someone else's view of that is reasonable. But I think the original question was whether the fear women have of strange men is something that should be factored into stories.

I took it as being intended that way, but there were things in the derail that I thought warranted responding to. Happy to discuss the "story" side of it too.

Most of my writing is F-F so it's a little different, but I do think a lot about safety/trust considerations in writing. Intimacy usually requires achieving some level of trust - not just the basic physical-safety aspect we've been focussing on here, but also stuff like "are they going to break my heart?"/"do they know what they're doing with that rope?" - and when stories skip past that and go straight to "mutual attraction established, time to fuck" that usually feels a bit lacking to me. That establishing-trust part doesn't have to be the "two forms of ID" scene; there are all sorts of ways people can build trust, and a character who's considerate about making their partner feel comfortable about getting it on can be sexy AF.

Stories about risk-taking are fine too. Some people do things they know are risky, for all sorts of reasons. It's more when the character is doing something that probably should feel risky to them, but the story seems to be oblivious to that, that it doesn't ring true.

 

[cadeauxxx]

"I choose the bear!"

 

[cadeauxxx]

I find the concept ridiculous. Do we mean somewhere in the whole woods, or right in front of your face? The bear is obviously more dangerous in any situation where you actually engage. Your hope with the bear is that you don't actually end up close to it. Or that you have a high powered hunting weapon. Your hope with the man is that he's not one of the half a percent of men who might try to harm you, using human capabilities that you might be able to counter with other human capabilities like hiding better than he can track, or stabbing or shooting or beating him with a stick.

Disclaimer - I don't know anything about bears. But they're scary. But most instances I've heard about of running into other hikers on the trail have not been scary.

Bears can really mess you up. Here's an entire Youtube channel dedicated to bear attacks for anyone that needs nightmare fuel, and it has quite many stories of accidental encounters.

I watched Grizzly Man during the lockdowns and Tim Treadwell's story is something I cannot get out of my head. The horror he and his girlfriend endured is the stuff of nightmares. I'd much rather take my chances with a stranger in the woods, than a 500lb animal that can eat someone alive.

 

[John Connors]

You should all listen to that YouTube channel Scary Bear Attacks that Cadeauxxx mentioned to hear the damage that even the more “docile” Black Bear can inflict on a person. Never mind an 800lb plus pissed off Grizzly bear who feels you are encroaching on its territory. Or a mother bear with her cubs.

Bears will also eat you alive. It’s not a quick death.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Living in a country without wild bears, I know precious little about staying safe when potentially near them - I've heard about keeping all food and food traces locked up, but that's about it. And never get between a momma bear and her cubs.

What's the chances of a bear in the distance in woods simply ignoring you and getting on with its day? Or more importantly, letting you get on with yours? Assuming you too are minding your own business, of course. Without that data, I can't answer the question.

 

[Bramblethorn]

You should all listen to that YouTube channel Scary Bear Attacks that Cadeauxxx mentioned to hear the damage that even the more “docile” Black Bear can inflict on a person. Never mind an 800lb plus pissed off Grizzly bear who feels you are encroaching on its territory. Or a mother bear with her cubs.

Bears will also eat you alive. It’s not a quick death.

Nobody in this thread is arguing that bears can't kill people. Nobody. Not sure why folk feel the need to argue against a case that nobody's making.

 

[cadeauxxx]

Nobody in this thread is arguing that bears can't kill people. Nobody. Not sure why folk feel the need to argue against a case that nobody's making.

You don't say?

If I had to choose, I'd pick "man" ahead of "bear" (unless we're talking pandas or something). But the fact that a lot of people would have to stop and think about this question instead of just going "well obviously the man" bears thinking about.

(FWIW, here in Australia I'd choose "snake" ahead of "man", if we're not surprising one another at close range. Man ahead of buffalo, and buffalo ahead of saltwater croc.)

Oh, never mind.

I'm sure someone can enlighten us how man is worse than bear when it comes to the possibility of being killed, eaten alive and dismembered. People should sit down and watch Grizzly Man sometime.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I’m not going to make a habit of this. Indeed many of the attitudes on this thread explain why I’ve had enough of this place. But…

1. It’s not about fucking bears
2. It’s about trying to get men to listen to and understand women’s day-to-day experiences and - for way too many - their major traumas at the hands of men
3. So many women have jumped on this - frankly totally unserious - hypothetical question precisely because of male attitudes like: #notallmen are rapists (corollary #somemenare); men hurt men more often than women (like that’s relevant, or make me feel more safe); women are incapable of understanding something as rational as risk assessment (just fuck off); very few women are subject to sexual assault (this is alternative reality stuff)
4. It’s those attitudes that have women screaming “listen to us for once, try to understand our experience” - I support the thing that other women are trying to say, even if the vehicle being used is deeply flawed
5. I choose man, based on a basic understanding of wild animals and their size / strength (I fought off a violent would be rapist [though only as he was blind drunk], I would have zero chance with a grizzly)
6. But that doesn’t mean I dismiss the entirely valid concerns of other women - I get why “I choose bear”’ feels right for many - especially victims of sexual assault (which is a higher percentage than anyone should be comfortable with)
7. Try to understand why so many women make this choice - it’s not because they are irrational - there is a genuine problem

Why not try listening to a woman in your life instead of mansplaining that bears are carnivores? You might stop being part of the problem that way.

I’m not going to engage further. So feel free to rip me a new hole, or post your stupid memes. You’ll just be supporting my point.

Emily

 

[NoTalentHack]

"I choose the bear!"
View attachment 2344130

 

[cadeauxxx]

If it's not about bears, why is it called man or bear then?

A better argument can be made for issues in relationships and between men and women without the choice of a dangerous animal that is a killing machine.

I find the thought of a woman preferring a wild animal that can violently butcher and kill her in the most gruesome way possible, in itself to be more misogynistic than anything else in these arguments.

Also to play fair here - we would be sitting here laughing and mocking men in a similar question of something stupid like "woman or live in a desert alone". But in the case of women picking a bear who can brutally kill them, apparently we're not supposed to laugh at how stupid it is.

 

[nice90sguy]

I'd personally be terrified if I was alone in the woods with Bear Grylls. He's one scary Christian fundamentalist

 

[KatieDoes]

"I choose the bear!"
View attachment 2344130

Now make one with men it will be 1000X worse.

 

[cadeauxxx]

View attachment 2344158

ROFL, that just proves my point of how absurd and stupid this question is.

Here's a better question if you want to talk about relationship issues and men treating women badly - Man or Dog?

There's plenty of single women (and single men too) who live with a dog, or even a cat. Anyone who has had a pet, knows that we tend to treat them as our own family and it is the most heartbreaking thing to endure when they leave us. It's a real shame that a dog can't live more than 15 years (I was lucky with mine who passed last year at 16 years).

By basing it around a pet or a man, you can actually talk about relationship issues and misogyny, without being laughed out the room over the ridiculousness of choosing a wild animal that can kill you and eat you alive, over a man.

So there's the mic drop. Dog or man?

Now make one with men it will be 1000X worse.

I already made this post.

Also to play fair here - we would be sitting here laughing and mocking men in a similar question of something stupid like "woman or live in a desert alone".

Instead of choosing a bear, how about man or dog?

 

[KatieDoes]

Living in a country without wild bears, I know precious little about staying safe when potentially near them - I've heard about keeping all food and food traces locked up, but that's about it. And never get between a momma bear and her cubs.

What's the chances of a bear in the distance in woods simply ignoring you and getting on with its day? Or more importantly, letting you get on with yours? Assuming you too are minding your own business, of course. Without that data, I can't answer the question.

The original question was posed in America, where the most prevalent bear is the American Black Bear. They are generally timid, non aggressive, and avoid humans for the most part. They rarely attack, and if they do it is almost always because they were approached and threatened (or felt threatened).

In the case of this bear, I absolutely, 100% choose the bear every fucking time.

Brown Bears (Grizzly) are more aggressive, and make for a more difficult decision. I think in that case, I’d hope to come across a man who runs slower than me.

Polar Bears are the only ones who view humans as a food source, but I’m not likely to happen across one while hiking in the woods, because woods are not ice.

 

[cadeauxxx]

That sounds like goalpost shifting. It was called Man or Bear, no specification of what kind of bear. Black bears kill people too. Here's an entire playlist of videos from Scary Bear Stories about black bears in specific.

If people want an actual debate about issues between men and women that actually makes sense; then Dog or Man or even Cat or Man will get the needle moving much better, than a wild animal that can kill you. Most women aren't going to live with a bear, but single people tend to have pets.

 

[KatieDoes]

That sounds like goalpost shifting. It was called Man or Bear, no specification of what kind of bear. Black bears kill people too. Here's an entire playlist of videos from Scary Bear Stories about black bears in specific.

If people want an actual debate about issues between men and women that actually makes sense; then Dog or Man or even Cat or Man will get the needle moving much better, than a wild animal that can kill you. Most women aren't going to live with a bear, but single people tend to have pets.

Men are so emotional when they don’t get picked.


That’s why we opt for the bear. Bears are gonna Bear. Men are less predictable.

 

[Bramblethorn]

That sounds like goalpost shifting. It was called Man or Bear, no specification of what kind of bear. Black bears kill people too. Here's an entire playlist of videos from Scary Bear Stories about black bears in specific.

"Goalpost shifting" is pretty rich coming from the dude who's been trying to make this all about the very specific risk of being eaten alive as opposed to any of the other awful things that men, and not bears, have been known to do.

I don't see this going anywhere constructive, so welcome to my ignore list. Have a nice life.