Religion

[bridgeburner]

Recidiva,

You're coming at this backwards. Most people are exposed to religion long before they're exposed to conscious knowledge of sexuality. Babies are baptized or circumcized or dedicated to deities and children are raised in the faith of their fathers and indoctrinated in those beliefs openly and with the full support of their community while sexuality might at best be lackadasically dealt with if not outrighted avoided altogether.

While it's not impossible that some people might be raised outside of religious spheres, come into their sexuality, fear their kinky desires and then seek to channel it into other areas and discover that religious devotion works for them, that would be an exception rather than the rule.

When you talk about flagellants you're talking about something that is extremely rare in the modern age occuring primarily in Central and South America. The great Flagellant movements were concentrated mainly between the latter part of the 13th and 15th centuries. Tens of thousands of men, women and children progressing through the streets for 33 1/2 days at a time beating their naked backs bloody with knotted ropes in penance for their own sins and those of their rulers or the Church or in an attempt to stave off epidemics of bubonic plague. Were there masochists among them? Certainly there must have been, but the nature of religious devotion during that period would have made it highly unlikely that a closet masochist was sitting just waiting for the opportunity to join a Flagellant Procession to break out his rope flail.

There are of course vows of abstinence whether that be from sex or food or drink or speech or material wealth. Penance is done in prayer and good works, through labor and physical adversity. As with the Flagellants, there are bound to be those who participate in such acts not only because of religious fervor but also because it gives them a sexual thrill, but that is unique to the individual not a function of Penance itself unless you want to claim that the human animal is inherently sadomasochistic in which case everything we do falls under that net.

On the flip side there is religious ecstacy. I think it's most easily seen in Four-Square Evangelical churches --- clapping, speaking in tongues, the beatific expressions on the faces of those who raise their hands in worship. Most of this appears to be music-driven. The emotional roller-coaster of a Four-Square service can be cathartic. It's exhilarating and cleansing and who wouldn't feel holy and blessed coming out of it? I'm an atheist and I'm not immune to such things, but I cry at Hallmark commercials so I'm an easy touch for sentiment.

Speaking of musical transport ---ever been to a Dead show or Dave Matthews or Phish concert? Yeah, a lot of folks are chemically assisted, but a lot of them aren't. A lot of them are simply grooving on the music and the "energy". It's rapturous. You can find that same sort of thing at drum circles or Raves. Or in people who perform music or those who enjoy the symphony. Humans get off on a lot of different things and I don't think that it's always necessarily a substitution for sex either conscious or unconscious. Some of it may be, but as with the religious examples, I think that's unique to the individual. Some people just aren't comfortable with themselves --- or they are but find their desires unacceptable and so channel them into something else.

All of this means that I agree that some people may find outlets for their sexuality through religion, but I think that there are any number of other equally pursued outlets as well so religion doesn't deserve singling out.


-B

 

[Blushing Bottom]

At it again Diva?

Stiring up the masses with the devil's advocate approach.

Behave!

 

[Recidiva]

At it again Diva?

Stiring up the masses with the devil's advocate approach.

Behave!

Yes ma'am.

You'll have to PM me my responses to make it look realistic.

 

[John Doe]

Catholicism seems to have quite a lot of sadomasochism in it, or at least the modern iterations of it.

Anyway, the image of the crucifix is by definition not a graven image.

To me it symolizes a guy nailed onto two pieces of wood.

 

[shy slave]

He was slaughtered.. but he did not die.

This might help explain my view:


We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through Him all things were made. For US MEN and for our salvation He came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
FOR OUR SAKE He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered died, and was buried.
On the third day He rose in fulfillment of the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, AND HIS KINGDOM WILL HAVE NO END.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.





lol church on a porn board...how fun

This reminds me of my hours and hours in church as a child.
As an adult, I did the Easter vigil once, three days of knneling and praying with 20 min breaks for food and bathroom. Intoning the 'Hail Mary' over and over; intersperced with the Catechism.
As a child, I loved all the cermony, wosrshipping and kneeling.
In one church there wasn't a confessional box, we had to kneel in front of the priest and confess.

Wonderful submission.

I have often likened some of the mind set Andante can take me too as similiar in feeling to a deep meditation. It has the same out of sync feeling and takes time to re-orientate myself back to the room when he brings me back.
This does not happen in connection with pain but in connection to his voice and my submission to it.


Recidiva mentioned pain, trance and ecstasy as a rite of passage and ritual.
There are several examples of that in religious history, just as there are in BDSM. people find ecstasy in all sorts of things. The mind can transend anything if the will is strong enough, think of the torture processes used for centuries by differing factions. All aimed at illiciting information from the person being tortured. Sometimes no amount of torture works, the mind can transcend the body and extreme situations can cause that event

 

[graceanne]

I'm protestant. Their's nothing masochistic in my religion. I do not spend any time on my knees - hurts too much. I refuse to go to churches that have pews straight from hell, cause they hurt me too much.

And just on a side note, easter is not, and has not in a long time, been based on a pagan calender. Easter is based on a Hebrew calender. Easter is ALWAYS the sunday after passover, cause that's when it actually happened. Passover, I'm told by my Jewish friends, determined by the moons phases.

 

[Recidiva]

I'm protestant. Their's nothing masochistic in my religion. I do not spend any time on my knees - hurts too much. I refuse to go to churches that have pews straight from hell, cause they hurt me too much.

And just on a side note, easter is not, and has not in a long time, been based on a pagan calender. Easter is based on a Hebrew calender. Easter is ALWAYS the sunday after passover, cause that's when it actually happened. Passover, I'm told by my Jewish friends, determined by the moons phases.

Ostara is a name of a fertility goddess and her symbol is eggs. That's where the tradition comes from. The same way that a Christmas tree didn't originate in Jerusalem but in a colder climate.

They're blended traditions that mean different things to different people because of their history. But the bunny and the eggs are still pagan symbols, they didn't come from Christian tradition at all, they were adopted.

Wikipedia:

So-called "Pagan" Easter traditions, along with Christmas celebrations, were among the first casualties of the Protestant Reformation. These holidays were eventually restored (though Christmas remains an ordinary working day in the Netherlands, and only became a legal holiday in Scotland in 1967, after the Church of Scotland finally relaxed its objections). Some Christians (usually but not always fundamentalists), however, continue to reject the celebration of Easter (and, often, of Christmas), because they believe them to be irrevocably tainted with paganism and idolatry.

Other groups, such as the Sabbatarian Church of God, claim to keep the feasts and commandments of God given in the Bible, which includes a Christian Passover that lacks most of the practices or symbols associated with Easter and retains more features of the Passover observed by Jesus Christ at The Last Supper.

 

[graceanne]

Ostara is a name of a fertility goddess and her symbol is eggs. That's where the tradition comes from. The same way that a Christmas tree didn't originate in Jerusalem but in a colder climate.

They're blended traditions that mean different things to different people because of their history. But the bunny and the eggs are still pagan symbols, they didn't come from Christian tradition at all, they were adopted.

Wikipedia:

So-called "Pagan" Easter traditions, along with Christmas celebrations, were among the first casualties of the Protestant Reformation. These holidays were eventually restored (though Christmas remains an ordinary working day in the Netherlands, and only became a legal holiday in Scotland in 1967, after the Church of Scotland finally relaxed its objections). Some Christians (usually but not always fundamentalists), however, continue to reject the celebration of Easter (and, often, of Christmas), because they believe them to be irrevocably tainted with paganism and idolatry.

Other groups, such as the Sabbatarian Church of God, claim to keep the feasts and commandments of God given in the Bible, which includes a Christian Passover that lacks most of the practices or symbols associated with Easter and retains more features of the Passover observed by Jesus Christ at The Last Supper.

I'm not saying that their isn't pagan symbolism in the holiday. But the actual day is chosen on a hebrew calendar. Their's pagan symbolism in all our holidays, frankly. I can't think of any holiday, off hand, that doesn't have pagan symbolism. And most of our holidays are decided on a pagan calender, too - but not easter.

 

[jadefirefly]

Grace is right.

The traditions behind many holidays, such as Easter and Christmas, are distinctly pagan. But Easter is consistently based off when Passover happens, and Passover is most definitely Jewish.

Now, ask me when the last time I actually woke up and remembered to -celebrate- one of holidays, and I'll stare at you blankly... I'm so bad. But sometimes I actually do know something of use.


Amusing side note: at work the other day, I asked a lady if she was here for Easter pictures. She bristled at me and loudly declared that no, she was not -- she did not celebrate pagan holidays! The looks she got from the other parents were absolutely priceless.

 

[graceanne]

Now, ask me when the last time I actually woke up and remembered to -celebrate- one of holidays, and I'll stare at you blankly... I'm so bad. But sometimes I actually do know something of use. [/COLOR]

Know how I'd like to celebrate the holiday? By doing nothing. I mean I want to go to church, but it'd be a quiet, contemplative service. I wouldn't dye any eggs (cause whoever thought that would be a good idea HATED parent). I wouldn't spend any time with family, or worry about a huge dinner. None of it. Just get some rest. But I have kids, and they need their holiday.

 

[jadefirefly]

I've no idea what I'm doing -- I have the day off work.

There's no privacy in my house, so if I want to spend any time in meditation or contemplation of my own, it ain't happenin' here.

Do you know, a couple of times in years past, I have actually found a church on Easter and just slipped in to sit in the back -- of all the holidays, it's close enough for me that it doesn't really matter where I celebrate it.

I think I just jacked the thread. Oops.

 

[graceanne]

I think I just jacked the thread. Oops.

There you go - jacking off again. *shakes head*

 

[Recidiva]

Recidiva,

You're coming at this backwards. Most people are exposed to religion long before they're exposed to conscious knowledge of sexuality. Babies are baptized or circumcized or dedicated to deities and children are raised in the faith of their fathers and indoctrinated in those beliefs openly and with the full support of their community while sexuality might at best be lackadasically dealt with if not outrighted avoided altogether.

While it's not impossible that some people might be raised outside of religious spheres, come into their sexuality, fear their kinky desires and then seek to channel it into other areas and discover that religious devotion works for them, that would be an exception rather than the rule.

When you talk about flagellants you're talking about something that is extremely rare in the modern age occuring primarily in Central and South America. The great Flagellant movements were concentrated mainly between the latter part of the 13th and 15th centuries. Tens of thousands of men, women and children progressing through the streets for 33 1/2 days at a time beating their naked backs bloody with knotted ropes in penance for their own sins and those of their rulers or the Church or in an attempt to stave off epidemics of bubonic plague. Were there masochists among them? Certainly there must have been, but the nature of religious devotion during that period would have made it highly unlikely that a closet masochist was sitting just waiting for the opportunity to join a Flagellant Procession to break out his rope flail.

There are of course vows of abstinence whether that be from sex or food or drink or speech or material wealth. Penance is done in prayer and good works, through labor and physical adversity. As with the Flagellants, there are bound to be those who participate in such acts not only because of religious fervor but also because it gives them a sexual thrill, but that is unique to the individual not a function of Penance itself unless you want to claim that the human animal is inherently sadomasochistic in which case everything we do falls under that net.

On the flip side there is religious ecstacy. I think it's most easily seen in Four-Square Evangelical churches --- clapping, speaking in tongues, the beatific expressions on the faces of those who raise their hands in worship. Most of this appears to be music-driven. The emotional roller-coaster of a Four-Square service can be cathartic. It's exhilarating and cleansing and who wouldn't feel holy and blessed coming out of it? I'm an atheist and I'm not immune to such things, but I cry at Hallmark commercials so I'm an easy touch for sentiment.

Speaking of musical transport ---ever been to a Dead show or Dave Matthews or Phish concert? Yeah, a lot of folks are chemically assisted, but a lot of them aren't. A lot of them are simply grooving on the music and the "energy". It's rapturous. You can find that same sort of thing at drum circles or Raves. Or in people who perform music or those who enjoy the symphony. Humans get off on a lot of different things and I don't think that it's always necessarily a substitution for sex either conscious or unconscious. Some of it may be, but as with the religious examples, I think that's unique to the individual. Some people just aren't comfortable with themselves --- or they are but find their desires unacceptable and so channel them into something else.

All of this means that I agree that some people may find outlets for their sexuality through religion, but I think that there are any number of other equally pursued outlets as well so religion doesn't deserve singling out.


-B

I'm not coming at it backward for a person who has made a study of religion and ritual compared to sexual ritual. It's absolutely relevant in this context and in the framed question. Even those raised in a religious background don't always remain in it.

The unfortunate tone that seems to be taking place is that I somehow disapprove of masochism or religion by bringing up instances from my own experience, which is not the case.

To be clear, all religion does not require faith. It requires agreement with something.

Fasting, sacrifice, all devotions that are done in order to offer suffering for its own sake, either to experience the suffering of others, or induce pain and transcend it, are all in the realm of masochism because it isn't pain for a mundane purpose, it's ritual pain to achieve a goal (sympathy, penance, ecstasy)

As to this not being practiced these days, there are people in the Phillipines hanging on crosses today. There are Muslim flagellant marches. Hindu piercing rituals. I'm not belittling these traditions or exposing them. I'm discussing them.

There are those that believe that offering pain is sacred, and that by definition is masochistic. (not everyone believes this, so externally they can't appear to be anything but masochistic in origin)

There are those that require pain be offered, and that by definition is sadistic. (None of these religious founders said "Hey guys, hang on a cross/whip yourself/pierce yourself for Me", so someone thought of it. Humans either wanted to see it or do it. Rarely (except in the case of some not-so-obvious cults, like Kali) did the original diety glorify pain.

The human element of faith and devotion contains an element of masochism. Some people choose to create, build a temple. Other people choose to bleed.

As to why I'm singling it out, it's because I have questions about people's experiences, and I don't avoid singling something out because it might press buttons. Any subject that presses buttons is interesting.

I like buttons.

 

[chris9]

I try to answer, though I'm not sure I understand the question

I try to stick to my personal experience. I am Catholic, but I don't think repressed sexuality made me more religious or anything. I feel I found out about my sexuality (or am finding out about) early enough to not screw me up or made me substitute anything else. I sure can see it happening, but I don't think repressed sexuality is the only reason for religious fervor, nor that a screwed up life (e.g. abuse) leads to any extremes, either sexually or religiously or anything else. Again, it can happen. I know too little about the social, educational or genetic reasons for any of this to really say much about it, though.

What came to my mind reading through this thread, at least from the posts I did understand, is not Christ cruxified. It's stories of Saints. I know in like 5th grade or something we learned about different Saints, what they did, and how they died. And I know it thrilled me, to hear the stories of martyrs, how they were tortured to death. At that time I didn't know there even existed anything like SM in a sexual context. And then, when visiting dungeons, and my parents telling me about the inquisition, about finding out the truth by torturing, making people admit sins/crimes, again, it thrilled me.
I know those settings made up for many fantasies I've had. I don't know if those who 'invented' it felt like it.
I can most certainly see the same elements in submission and masochis as in religion. Putting someone else's will above my own, accepting things I don't want, accepting pain for the pleasure of someone else can all be and have been and are still in religion and D/s/BDSM relationships. So I do see a similarity.

Ok, I'm done now. I'm not sure if I said anything that has to do with the original question, or any of the other posts. I'm not sure I'm either firm enough in English or in theology to discuss the one in the other
Happy Easter, everyone, wherever it comes from, however you celebrate it.

 

[Recidiva]

I try to answer, though I'm not sure I understand the question

I try to stick to my personal experience. I am Catholic, but I don't think repressed sexuality made me more religious or anything. I feel I found out about my sexuality (or am finding out about) early enough to not screw me up or made me substitute anything else. I sure can see it happening, but I don't think repressed sexuality is the only reason for religious fervor, nor that a screwed up life (e.g. abuse) leads to any extremes, either sexually or religiously or anything else. Again, it can happen. I know too little about the social, educational or genetic reasons for any of this to really say much about it, though.

What came to my mind reading through this thread, at least from the posts I did understand, is not Christ cruxified. It's stories of Saints. I know in like 5th grade or something we learned about different Saints, what they did, and how they died. And I know it thrilled me, to hear the stories of martyrs, how they were tortured to death. At that time I didn't know there even existed anything like SM in a sexual context. And then, when visiting dungeons, and my parents telling me about the inquisition, about finding out the truth by torturing, making people admit sins/crimes, again, it thrilled me.
I know those settings made up for many fantasies I've had. I don't know if those who 'invented' it felt like it.
I can most certainly see the same elements in submission and masochis as in religion. Putting someone else's will above my own, accepting things I don't want, accepting pain for the pleasure of someone else can all be and have been and are still in religion and D/s/BDSM relationships. So I do see a similarity.

Ok, I'm done now. I'm not sure if I said anything that has to do with the original question, or any of the other posts. I'm not sure I'm either firm enough in English or in theology to discuss the one in the other
Happy Easter, everyone, wherever it comes from, however you celebrate it.

It did, thank you.

And I think religion is one of the most socially acceptable areas for expression of this wholly human instinct and reaction to pain. It's often easier to admit this to God than to other humans. It's a safer space.

I'd love to see more people express it for what it is, without a stigma. (Well, if you want stigmata, okay)

 

[lne_iii]

I've come to believe that organized "religion" is centered on:

Meeting in a building twice a week
Giving the church money
"Praying" for one another...
Speaking out against people who believe differently...
Etc.

I am not a religious person by any means, nor am I going to try and persuade anyone the other way. I believe that "religions" are manifests of belief, and I do not fully conform to any of them. Nor can I prove (or DISprove) the existance of any sort of deity/higher power.

But I do have faith. In myself, in others, in humanity in general (as hard as that might be given the state of things lately)...

The thing that bothers me most about the great majority of "religions" is that they are concrete. We believe this, this is why, and this is never going to change, ever.

My simple evidence against trains of thought like this is that, as humanity we once thought the world flat. Oops.

 

[graceanne]

I can kinda see what you're talking about, actually. While it's not true with me (I don't fast or sacrifice anything), I do know their are tons of people who do things like that. My pastor talked about, when he was a missionary, seeing men nail themselves to a cross, literally, and drag the cross through town. Then they'd put it in the ground and stay their all day. Of course they weren't killed, at the end of the day someone would remove the nails and they'd go home. But if that's not masochistic I don't know what is.

Or stigmata. (In case someone doesn't know what that is, it's when someone shows up with sores on theirs palm, feet, and rib - just like where Jesus had injuries. Sometimes it's self inflicted, but other times it's not - it's something that occurs in the brain.) I'm not sure if I'd say that the people who get stigmata through something holy are masochistic, but what about the people who do it to themselves?

I think that it's possible that some people find religion a safe outlet for masochism. People might not understand it, but their's some respect in it.

 

[Recidiva]

I can kinda see what you're talking about, actually. While it's not true with me (I don't fast or sacrifice anything), I do know their are tons of people who do things like that. My pastor talked about, when he was a missionary, seeing men nail themselves to a cross, literally, and drag the cross through town. Then they'd put it in the ground and stay their all day. Of course they weren't killed, at the end of the day someone would remove the nails and they'd go home. But if that's not masochistic I don't know what is.

Or stigmata. (In case someone doesn't know what that is, it's when someone shows up with sores on theirs palm, feet, and rib - just like where Jesus had injuries. Sometimes it's self inflicted, but other times it's not - it's something that occurs in the brain.) I'm not sure if I'd say that the people who get stigmata through something holy are masochistic, but what about the people who do it to themselves?

I think that it's possible that some people find religion a safe outlet for masochism. People might not understand it, but their's some respect in it.

Well, of course there's the hypocritical sadist and masochist who will judge others and do whatever they want behind closed doors, and that's not all that interesting, that I get.

It's the reverence for ritualized masochism in society...and then somehow stigmatizing it privately or sexually or denying they have any masochist in 'em.

Some people want their sex lives to be furtive or shameful, this I know and I also get, so it's not about that.

But the person who celebrates public masochism, yet really makes no connection between ritual masochism and personal masochism...that to me is interesting.

Thanks for your observations

 

[graceanne]

But the person who celebrates public masochism, yet really makes no connection between ritual masochism and personal masochism...that to me is interesting.

Thanks for your observations

Like I said, the reason they celebrate public masochism is cause it's more socially acceptable. They have a place, and identity. Their's some respect (from some people) for a person who loves their god so much that they'll do that to themselves. I personally think it's silly. lol

 

[catalina_francisco]

It's the reverence for ritualized masochism in society...and then somehow stigmatizing it privately or sexually or denying they have any masochist in 'em.

Some people want their sex lives to be furtive or shameful, this I know and I also get, so it's not about that.

But the person who celebrates public masochism, yet really makes no connection between ritual masochism and personal masochism...that to me is interesting.

Thanks for your observations

Without giving it too much thought I would suggest perhaps it is because they see a purpose for ritualistic masochism, which really does not have to have a connection (and I gather usually doesn't) to actually getting physical or psychological pleasure from it as does a masochist in the SM sense. What purpose would there then be to bring it on home? It could be likened to saying why does someone who enjoys sex personally not think it should be suitable for everyone, children included, or should be enjoyable with everyone they meet?....there is a major difference though the actions may seem to be the same.

Catalina

 

[Recidiva]

Without giving it too much thought I would suggest perhaps it is because they see a purpose for ritualistic masochism, which really does not have to have a connection (and I gather usually doesn't) to actually getting physical or psychological pleasure from it as does a masochist in the SM sense. What purpose would there then be to bring it on home? It could be likened to saying why does someone who enjoys sex personally not think it should be suitable for everyone, children included, or should be enjoyable with everyone they meet?....there is a major difference though the actions may seem to be the same.

Catalina

That's the question. If you believe that your God would benefit from your pain, wouldn't it stand to reason that other people, and yourself, would benefit from the same sacrifice and offering? Wouldn't that possibly lead you to find a way to see if it would?

 

[babiesmiles]

He was slaughtered.. but he did not die.

This might help explain my view:


We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through Him all things were made. For US MEN and for our salvation He came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
FOR OUR SAKE He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered died, and was buried.
On the third day He rose in fulfillment of the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, AND HIS KINGDOM WILL HAVE NO END.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.



lol church on a porn board...how fun

It has always been ( and still is) my favourite prayer it says the core of the belief in simple words and it is a declaration of faith !

Good Easter !

 

[catalina_francisco]

That's the question. If you believe that your God would benefit from your pain, wouldn't it stand to reason that other people, and yourself, would benefit from the same sacrifice and offering? Wouldn't that possibly lead you to find a way to see if it would?

No, but then I don't equate myself with a deity. Guess it also comes down to my not being someone who sees someone do something, or read about something others do, then naturally think I should try it too. I have always been fairly individualistic in my thoughts and actions, and I need a lot more substance than 'well if they get something from it, I'm going to jump on the bandwagon too' to even spark my interest. It has to instinctively touch something inside me, not come from thinking of duplicating the actions or outcomes of another...more often than not, the desire or thought is there long before I see or hear of another's experiences. Like I said, duplicating actions does not mean they will have the same outcomes or even have relevance.

Catalina

 

[Recidiva]

No, but then I don't equate myself with a deity. Guess it also comes down to my not being someone who sees someone do something, or read about something others do, then naturally think I should try it too. I have always been fairly individualistic in my thoughts and actions, and I need a lot more substance than 'well if they get something from it, I'm going to jump on the bandwagon too' to even spark my interest. It has to instinctively touch something inside me, not come from thinking of duplicating the actions or outcomes of another...more often than not, the desire or thought is there long before I see or hear of another's experiences.

Catalina

But if something requires sacrifice you wouldn't hesitate.

Is it possible people don't make sacrifices in their personal lives because of a fear of sacrifice being associated with weakness instead of strength? Humility and service to God is noble, humility and service to other people is...not so much?

 

[graceanne]

But if something requires sacrifice you wouldn't hesitate.

Is it possible people don't make sacrifices in their personal lives because of a fear of sacrifice being associated with weakness instead of strength? Humility and service to God is noble, humility and service to other people is...not so much?

I don't know about the rest of the world but I have made sacrifices for people. Just cause you don't bleed on the outside, doesn't mean you're not bleeding.