Religion

[Recidiva]

I don't think it has anything to do with it. They go with it cause it's socially acceptable (more so than just being a crazy) when it's holy. I think they go along with it cause they're sick, and they've found an outlet for their sickness.

This is true, and you don't have to be stupid to fall for it. All you have to do is believe. One of the scariest cults that pulled a Sarin gas attack in Japan was populated with extremely intelligent people.

So I know a lot of people dismiss these guys as dumb, but generally they're not. They just want to believe in something MORE, doesn't matter what it is, if it gets them where they're going.

It's all in the charisma and the delivery sometimes. Looking at the actual reasons given on paper looks crazier than a very crazy thing.

Unfortunately this breeds fear for the smaller religions and they often get very, very bad press.

 

[bridgeburner]

What exactly is it that makes people susceptible to this kind of thing? It's not stupidity exactly, but it's something. It's not something that can be explained away to them, either. You can't just present facts and have them go "Oh, you're right. I was totally mistaken in my beliefs."

Take any polarizing president and he will have adherents who so totally support him that they could catch him sodomizing baby goats on the steps of the White House and those people will claim that it's a plot by the other side to discredit him.

I don't understand where that kind of compulsion to pigheadedness comes from. It's an inability to back down and admit you were wrong or made a mistake as if that somehow makes you weak or stupid. Or perhaps it's that people want too badly to engage in unacceptable behavior and so cling to any justification they can find.

It's an "I want to be hateful but I don't want to admit that I like being hateful so I'll find some authority to condone my hatred and legitimize it," kind of thing.


-B

 

[Recidiva]

What exactly is it that makes people susceptible to this kind of thing? It's not stupidity exactly, but it's something. It's not something that can be explained away to them, either. You can't just present facts and have them go "Oh, you're right. I was totally mistaken in my beliefs."

Take any polarizing president and he will have adherents who so totally support him that they could catch him sodomizing baby goats on the steps of the White House and those people will claim that it's a plot by the other side to discredit him.

I don't understand where that kind of compulsion to pigheadedness comes from. It's an inability to back down and admit you were wrong or made a mistake as if that somehow makes you weak or stupid. Or perhaps it's that people want too badly to engage in unacceptable behavior and so cling to any justification they can find.

It's an "I want to be hateful but I don't want to admit that I like being hateful so I'll find some authority to condone my hatred and legitimize it," kind of thing.

-B

That's exactly the question I was asking with this thread. It's a fascinating twilight, where no single element I can determine makes you susceptible.

The only thing in common is a willingness to externalize hatred, and that is common to everyone.

I'm not as susceptible to it, but I'm sure I have a hook. I probably could become the most like this if my children were attacked, and then I'd have no problem murdering someone who I thought was responsible. Those are the scary ones too, the righteous ones that resonate.

 

[garbage can]

Indulging it in an ecstatic or mythic way rather than personalizing the impulse.

Does this mean worshipping the voodoo demon?..

 

[Recidiva]

Does this mean worshipping the voodoo demon?..

Which one?

The loa are listening.

 

[bridgeburner]

That's exactly the question I was asking with this thread. It's a fascinating twilight, where no single element I can determine makes you susceptible.

The only thing in common is a willingness to externalize hatred, and that is common to everyone.

I'm not as susceptible to it, but I'm sure I have a hook. I probably could become the most like this if my children were attacked, and then I'd have no problem murdering someone who I thought was responsible. Those are the scary ones too, the righteous ones that resonate.

I could certainly get caught up in something if I was given bad information, but I have a desire to learn as much as I can not just to be seen as "right" so as soon as I got new information that seemed reliable and lead me to different conculsions I'd be headed that way.

Then too, I don't have a problem admitting when I want to do something just because I want to do it. I'm aware of it when my baser impulses take over. If I choose to indulge them there there isn't any need to justify them--- there is no justification. If I act badly, I know it and I do it on purpose. I don't try to play it off as a reasonable response to some stimulus. I'm not being shitty to somebody because I wasn't breast-fed as a child. I'm being shitty because I'm in a bad mood and I don't feel like being nice. It's uncharming, but it's true. Fortunately it's also rare.

More than anything I don't want to lie to myself. I can handle the occasional petty impulse, I can't handle being a liar or hypocrite. That's what astounds me about these people. They don't care if they really ARE right, they just want to be perceived as right.

It's incredibly dishonest. I can put up with a lot of shit from a lot of people so long as they're honest about it. It's that lying and denial that makes me think "danger" because it means someone is impervious to reason.


-B

 

[Recidiva]

I could certainly get caught up in something if I was given bad information, but I have a desire to learn as much as I can not just to be seen as "right" so as soon as I got new information that seemed reliable and lead me to different conculsions I'd be headed that way.

Then too, I don't have a problem admitting when I want to do something just because I want to do it. I'm aware of it when my baser impulses take over. If I choose to indulge them there there isn't any need to justify them--- there is no justification. If I act badly, I know it and I do it on purpose. I don't try to play it off as a reasonable response to some stimulus. I'm not being shitty to somebody because I wasn't breast-fed as a child. I'm being shitty because I'm in a bad mood and I don't feel like being nice. It's uncharming, but it's true. Fortunately it's also rare.

More than anything I don't want to lie to myself. I can handle the occasional petty impulse, I can't handle being a liar or hypocrite. That's what astounds me about these people. They don't care if they really ARE right, they just want to be perceived as right.

It's incredibly dishonest. I can put up with a lot of shit from a lot of people so long as they're honest about it. It's that lying and denial that makes me think "danger" because it means someone is impervious to reason.


-B

I think it's also necessary to have at least an ounce of shame when viewing your connection with the divine.

 

[bridgeburner]

I think it's also necessary to have at least an ounce of shame when viewing your connection with the divine.

This is perhaps going to get me into hot water, but the lack of true shame is something that I notice quite a lot with the more vocal of the right-wing Christian socio-political movement. There isn't any shame for many of these people because they espouse the idea that "works" don't really mean anything. As long as you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior then your place in Heaven is assured ---- regardless of your behavior.

I suppose it goes back to the days of the Puritans when the idea was that your works reflected your state of grace --- clearly one would act well because acting badly showed that you weren't in God's favor, but that doesn't work these days. What you get is a lot of people who are free to act as badly as they wish without repercussions --- unless of course they happen to be gay in which case they're going to hell no matter what.


-B

 

[Recidiva]

This is perhaps going to get me into hot water, but the lack of true shame is something that I notice quite a lot with the more vocal of the right-wing Christian socio-political movement. There isn't any shame for many of these people because they espouse the idea that "works" don't really mean anything. As long as you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior then your place in Heaven is assured ---- regardless of your behavior.

I suppose it goes back to the days of the Puritans when the idea was that your works reflected your state of grace --- clearly one would act well because acting badly showed that you weren't in God's favor, but that doesn't work these days. What you get is a lot of people who are free to act as badly as they wish without repercussions --- unless of course they happen to be gay in which case they're going to hell no matter what.

-B

I love the Bible, when you go there to find wisdom without having it spooned to you by someone who is using it to make money, it makes so much sense.

Matthew 6:2

"Be careful that you don't do your charitable giving before men, to be seen by them, or else you have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

Therefore when you do merciful deeds, don't sound a trumpet before yourself, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may get glory from men. Most certainly I tell you, they have received their reward.

But when you do merciful deeds, don't let your left hand know what your right hand does"

Humility is unfortunately equated with humiliation, which has such negative connotations it gets lost.

That and realizing pride is one of the seven deadlies.

 

[bridgeburner]

I love the Bible, when you go there to find wisdom without having it spooned to you by someone who is using it to make money, it makes so much sense.

Matthew 6:2

"Be careful that you don't do your charitable giving before men, to be seen by them, or else you have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

Therefore when you do merciful deeds, don't sound a trumpet before yourself, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may get glory from men. Most certainly I tell you, they have received their reward.

But when you do merciful deeds, don't let your left hand know what your right hand does"

Humility is unfortunately equated with humiliation, which has such negative connotations it gets lost.

That and realizing pride is one of the seven deadlies.

What we get most often is this false humility ----- or the bragging about how humble we are. The great tearful confessions of the mighty who fall. You don't have to actually be sorry or change your ways, just get up on television and cry a little and talk about how your flesh was weak and then you're twice as beloved as you were before you got caught doing whatever it is you shouldn't have been doing.

You become more revered because you were willing to publicly humiliate yourself or state for the record that you'd done something bad ---- that you wouldn't have admitted to anyone had you not been caught at it. That's not humility, that's damage control.

 

[Recidiva]

What we get most often is this false humility ----- or the bragging about how humble we are. The great tearful confessions of the mighty who fall. You don't have to actually be sorry or change your ways, just get up on television and cry a little and talk about how your flesh was weak and then you're twice as beloved as you were before you got caught doing whatever it is you shouldn't have been doing.

You become more revered because you were willing to publicly humiliate yourself or state for the record that you'd done something bad ---- that you wouldn't have admitted to anyone had you not been caught at it. That's not humility, that's damage control.

I love this joke, for Nezatch:

"Once, during the High Holy Day services, the rabbi suddenly was possessed by a wave of mystical rapture, and threw himself onto the ground before the Ark and proclaimed, "Lord, I'm Nothing!" Seeing the rabbi in such a state, profoundly moved the cantor to have the same experience and he too, threw himself done before the Ark, proclaiming, "Lord, I'm Nothing!" Then, way in the back of the synagogue, the janitor, threw himself to the ground, and he too shouted, "Lord, "I'm Nothing." Whereupon, the rabbi turned to the cantor and whispered, "Look who thinks he's Nothing."

 

[bridgeburner]

Ha!!! Yes, that's it exactly!

 

[graceanne]

What exactly is it that makes people susceptible to this kind of thing?

Because people don't want to think for themselves. They want to be told what to believe, and what to do. If they'd bother to read the bible (in the case of biblically based cults) they'd know that what's being taught isn't there, but they allow their leader to tell them what's in there instead of looking themselves.

And yes they're very intelligant people. If they were stupid they wouldn't be as much of a threat.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Interesting conversation so far.

Since I'm not privy to the real sex lives of a lot of people, be they atheist, devoutly or casually religious, agnostic, monotheistic, polytheistic, animistic, shamanistic, what have you... I'm not about to run off trying to find repressed masochism or sadism in why people turn to faith.

I can, and will happily make the observation that yes, there's quite a bit about Dominance and submission, and pain/sacrifice as demonstration of devotion, in most faiths.

As a Christian (and by Christian here I mean "having a personal relationship with Christ", I do NOT mean "practicer of any particular dogma, rules, or belief structure devised by someone claiming authority to speak for the Diety") I hold my faith and beliefs dearly. In my own personal relationship with the Divine, there isn't a whole lot of D/s or SM going on, we're buds who hold the most interesting conversations. I talk a lot, He listens, and I get some of the strangest damned answers in the most unexpected of ways... (Netzach, your right. He IS a kvetching Jewish grandfather)

Anyway... to speak of the original thread, I suppose that sexually repressed people throw themselves into all kinds of activities and beliefs to find an outlet. Religious zealots don't have to be sexually repressed, but they certain can be. Just as the avid gardener could be. And the rabid Cubs fan. Or that crazy old lady who lives in the scarey house all by herself (with eleventy-seven cats) down at the end of the street could be.

As a casual observer of human behavior for 44, almost 45 years now, and as a semi-trained observer and fairly decent "street psychologist" (I was a cop for 17 years and had God only knows how many "crisis intervention" and other psych classes along the way), I have come to this conclusion about the motivations of others:

When I try to decipher WHY someone engages in a particular activity, unless I have direct access to the individual to get specific information from them about their motivation, I will always, and inevitably, end up trying to determine why they did something based on what would motivate _me_ to do the same act.

I have also observed this same tendency (to apply our own internal motivations to define motivations of other people) by a great many other outside observers, psychologists, theorists, and other folks trying to figure out why people do such damnably screwey things...

Which is why we have umpity-ump conflicting psychological theories about motivations and a bazillion self-help gurus making money hand over fist. Most people have no clue what really motivates them, and the majority of head shrinkers don't have a clue either, but hey, the human race has had the blind leading the blind since the beginning, why should we change that now, eh?

But anyway, back to the thread... (damn near hijacked my own message! *lol)

My personal faith came to me before much in the way of any of my conscious sexuality formed. Causal relationship between my faith and sexuality? Hanged if I know. Doesn't seem to be any. I was a twisted pervy little kid who fantasized about tying people up and hurting them long before I had thoughts about inserting Tab A in Slot B or C _or_ D...

And God touched my life before I was sexual intimate with anyone. And I don't recall Him saying a whole lot to me regarding sexuality other than "be nice with each other, and don't get her pregnant." I assumed he was telling them "don't get pregnant" too. Silly me, I didn't pay attention to the fact she was a good little Catholic girl.... *lol* Oh well, I got to be Dad to two wonderful boys.... (I know it seems I'm wondering off topic again, but I told you, He gives me some really screwey answers sometimes)

Okay... I've meandered enough tonight. This may be considered stream of unconsciousness since I can't keep the thoughts focused. They really are rambling. So I'll close with this:

The human race, in general, is a pretty decent lot. Our faiths, in general, try to teach us how to live together in peace. Some people, however, for whatever reason, turn out to be incredibly strange/evil/twisted/fucked up/insert your favorite adjective to describe _WAY_DIFFERENT_FROM_ME!_ here... and they will do very strange/evil/twisted/fucked up/insert your favorite adjective to describe _WAY_DIFFERENT_FROM_ME!_ things with their lives, religion, hobbies, neighbors, etc. Some of them will do these things for sexual reasons, some of them will do these things because they were abused as children, some of them will have motivations that none of us can reasonably guess at, but can have fun trying.

Happy guessing!

 

[RJMasters]

Interesting conversation so far.

Since I'm not privy to the real sex lives of a lot of people, be they atheist, devoutly or casually religious, agnostic, monotheistic, polytheistic, animistic, shamanistic, what have you... I'm not about to run off trying to find repressed masochism or sadism in why people turn to faith.

I can, and will happily make the observation that yes, there's quite a bit about Dominance and submission, and pain/sacrifice as demonstration of devotion, in most faiths.

As a Christian (and by Christian here I mean "having a personal relationship with Christ", I do NOT mean "practicer of any particular dogma, rules, or belief structure devised by someone claiming authority to speak for the Diety") I hold my faith and beliefs dearly. In my own personal relationship with the Divine, there isn't a whole lot of D/s or SM going on, we're buds who hold the most interesting conversations. I talk a lot, He listens, and I get some of the strangest damned answers in the most unexpected of ways... (Netzach, your right. He IS a kvetching Jewish grandfather)

Anyway... to speak of the original thread, I suppose that sexually repressed people throw themselves into all kinds of activities and beliefs to find an outlet. Religious zealots don't have to be sexually repressed, but they certain can be. Just as the avid gardener could be. And the rabid Cubs fan. Or that crazy old lady who lives in the scarey house all by herself (with eleventy-seven cats) down at the end of the street could be.

As a casual observer of human behavior for 44, almost 45 years now, and as a semi-trained observer and fairly decent "street psychologist" (I was a cop for 17 years and had God only knows how many "crisis intervention" and other psych classes along the way), I have come to this conclusion about the motivations of others:

When I try to decipher WHY someone engages in a particular activity, unless I have direct access to the individual to get specific information from them about their motivation, I will always, and inevitably, end up trying to determine why they did something based on what would motivate _me_ to do the same act.

I have also observed this same tendency (to apply our own internal motivations to define motivations of other people) by a great many other outside observers, psychologists, theorists, and other folks trying to figure out why people do such damnably screwey things...

Which is why we have umpity-ump conflicting psychological theories about motivations and a bazillion self-help gurus making money hand over fist. Most people have no clue what really motivates them, and the majority of head shrinkers don't have a clue either, but hey, the human race has had the blind leading the blind since the beginning, why should we change that now, eh?

But anyway, back to the thread... (damn near hijacked my own message! *lol)

My personal faith came to me before much in the way of any of my conscious sexuality formed. Causal relationship between my faith and sexuality? Hanged if I know. Doesn't seem to be any. I was a twisted pervy little kid who fantasized about tying people up and hurting them long before I had thoughts about inserting Tab A in Slot B or C _or_ D...

And God touched my life before I was sexual intimate with anyone. And I don't recall Him saying a whole lot to me regarding sexuality other than "be nice with each other, and don't get her pregnant." I assumed he was telling them "don't get pregnant" too. Silly me, I didn't pay attention to the fact she was a good little Catholic girl.... *lol* Oh well, I got to be Dad to two wonderful boys.... (I know it seems I'm wondering off topic again, but I told you, He gives me some really screwey answers sometimes)

Okay... I've meandered enough tonight. This may be considered stream of unconsciousness since I can't keep the thoughts focused. They really are rambling. So I'll close with this:

The human race, in general, is a pretty decent lot. Our faiths, in general, try to teach us how to live together in peace. Some people, however, for whatever reason, turn out to be incredibly strange/evil/twisted/fucked up/insert your favorite adjective to describe _WAY_DIFFERENT_FROM_ME!_ here... and they will do very strange/evil/twisted/fucked up/insert your favorite adjective to describe _WAY_DIFFERENT_FROM_ME!_ things with their lives, religion, hobbies, neighbors, etc. Some of them will do these things for sexual reasons, some of them will do these things because they were abused as children, some of them will have motivations that none of us can reasonably guess at, but can have fun trying.

Happy guessing!

As always a great contribution Geoff