Religion

[Recidiva]

I don't know about the rest of the world but I have made sacrifices for people. Just cause you don't bleed on the outside, doesn't mean you're not bleeding.

Yes, for me I see a spark of the divine in each human being, and I loved that Mother Theresa's order was based upon the quotation "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me." They chose to believe that with each person they cared for, that person was the embodiment of Jesus to them. Labor of love.

Each of us is worthy of sacrifice, I believe, and need it as a basic standard of our worth to others. Parents sacrifice for their children, spouses for each other. The willingness to choose to make that sacrifice and see it as sacred and required for each person to know their worth to you is pretty global as a sense of self-worth, at least for a child growing up who can't calculate worth in many other ways. It's the simplest math people have in relation to pain, since pain has a cost, it must have a value.

It does seem as if a social aversion to any level of even reasonable sacrifice and weakness, although acceptable in the eyes of God, is often not acceptable to be offered to others.

The replacement is "Do unto others...first."

 

[catalina_francisco]

But if something requires sacrifice you wouldn't hesitate.

Is it possible people don't make sacrifices in their personal lives because of a fear of sacrifice being associated with weakness instead of strength? Humility and service to God is noble, humility and service to other people is...not so much?

I'm not sure of what your life has been like, or who you have been around, but for myself I have known many people who have made huge sacrifices who were not into SM, D/s or any other variation, nor were they looking to be patted on the back or seen to be martyrs, nor were they religious....they just did what they felt was right. My own choice to make sacrifices in the mainstream world similarly is not based on any of those reasons, just what is right in the moment as perceived by me.

Catalina

 

[Recidiva]

I'm not sure of what your life has been like, or who you have been around, but for myself I have known many people who have made huge sacrifices who were not into SM, D/s or any other variation, nor were they looking to be patted on the back or seen to be martyrs, nor were they religious....they just did what they felt was right. My own choice to make sacrifices in the mainstream world similarly is not based on any of those reasons, just what is right in the moment as perceived by me.

Catalina

Thank you for your insights, I appreciate your time

 

[Kajira Callista]

congratulations...this thread is the first religion thread that didn't go up in flames.


I just wanted to add something.
I don't practice my religion because i am a masochist. I do think about two things often though.
First my ability to devote myself to someone. It is easy for me. kneeling, head bowed, rituals etc. are all things i was taught at a very early age, it is what we do to show our devotion and respect to God and his church.
Second...and this is a biggie for me these days. Do i get some sort of submissive fulfillment from going to church. I think i do. It makes me stronger and basically a better person.
Is that the only reason?
Nope i go because it is my job as a mother to teach my children their religion and to take them to church and help them understand all that goes on and why. It is a place to be with other people who are doing the same thing with their children...and mostly it is a place where i can be just me with nothing to hide and loved anyway for an hour or two.
So it doesn't have much to do with masochism but it does have something to do with submission.

 

[Recidiva]

congratulations...this thread is the first religion thread that didn't go up in flames.


I just wanted to add something.
I don't practice my religion because i am a masochist. I do think about two things often though.
First my ability to devote myself to someone. It is easy for me. kneeling, head bowed, rituals etc. are all things i was taught at a very early age, it is what we do to show our devotion and respect to God and his church.
Second...and this is a biggie for me these days. Do i get some sort of submissive fulfillment from going to church. I think i do. It makes me stronger and basically a better person.
Is that the only reason?
Nope i go because it is my job as a mother to teach my children their religion and to take them to church and help them understand all that goes on and why. It is a place to be with other people who are doing the same thing with their children...and mostly it is a place where i can be just me with nothing to hide and loved anyway for an hour or two.
So it doesn't have much to do with masochism but it does have something to do with submission.

Clear and helpful, thank you.

The difference between masochism and submission is a good distinction to make, one I should have made earlier. Didn't define my terms very clearly.

Sometimes it's clear to me, but it takes a little while to get beyond the tip of the iceberg.

 

[graceanne]

Second...and this is a biggie for me these days. Do i get some sort of submissive fulfillment from going to church. I think i do. It makes me stronger and basically a better person.

Is that the only reason?

Nope i go because it is my job as a mother to teach my children their religion and to take them to church and help them understand all that goes on and why. It is a place to be with other people who are doing the same thing with their children...and mostly it is a place where i can be just me with nothing to hide and loved anyway for an hour or two.

So it doesn't have much to do with masochism but it does have something to do with submission.

God is the ultimate Dom. I don't get any masochistic thrill out of my religion, but I do get some submissive fullfillment, too. God is the ultimate dom, I think. He's loving, He's wise, and He sets up guidelines for us, and consequences. Sometimes we don't understand His guidelines, but we still need to follow them. And he requires submission to His will.

And those are all the reasons I go to church, too. It fulfills me, it's like a drink of water after a day in the desert. I go to church cause it's important to teach my kids about God and His word. I go to church to be with other Christians, people who believe what I believe and will support me in my faith.

edited to add: *applauds kc's post*

 

[RJMasters]

Recidiva.... now if this conversation includes D/s and how D/s crosses over into religion, then I see huge parallels or cross-overs on many different levels. SM and sexual arousal is not one of them though.

The base of my D/s(notice I didn't say BDSM) philosophy comes from religious truth and principals. I would be glad to share some exact examples from my thinking on the relational aspects of D/s relationships, however, I already had a penalty flag thrown on the field for gloating. So if you consdier this as part of the direction or discussion you are looking for let me know and I will contribute futher.

Otherwise I will be at the other end of the field throwing one dollar bills at the cheerleaders.

 

[Recidiva]

Recidiva.... now if this conversation includes D/s and how D/s crosses over into religion, then I see huge parallels or cross-overs on many different levels. SM and sexual arousal is not one of them though.

The base of my D/s(notice I didn't say BDSM) philosophy comes from religious truth and principals. I would be glad to share some exact examples from my thinking on the relational aspects of D/s relationships, however, I already had a penalty flag thrown on the field for gloating. So if you consdier this as part of the direction or discussion you are looking for let me know and I will contribute futher.

Otherwise I will be at the other end of the field throwing one dollar bills at the cheerleaders.

LOL! No, happy to continue to entertain anyone's point of view, publicly or privately, go for it

Some of the best conversations I have are tangents or start in a PM sparked by a thought on here that can go another way.

 

[RJMasters]

LOL! No, happy to continue to entertain anyone's point of view, publicly or privately, go for it

Some of the best conversations I have are tangents or start in a PM sparked by a thought on here that can go another way.

Ok great.

Here is one way in which religious teaching has affected my thinking and my philosophy towards D/s relationship(well I guess you could say all relationships really)

Religious truth: God is a tri-une being or the trinity - The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe that since God created mankind, and did so in his image. Therefore we as human beings also are tri-une beings having a Mind, Heart and Body. Of course these three are figurative representations of our being and all elements of a person can be categorized under one of these three part of the human being. Such as the Will, Ego, Conscience, Feelings, Emotions, Sensations etc....

The cross over: Because we are tri-une beings and have a Mind, Heart and Body, it is possible to experience exchange on all three levels. Meaning simply that dominance can be an expression of the Mind, Heart and Body and can also be exerted upon the Mind, Heart and Body of another. Likewise submission can be an expression of the Mind, Heart and Body and can offered to another's Mind, Heart and Body.

I believe a healthy D/s relationship or any relationship for that matter should include a balance of exchange from all three of these.

This is just one example.

 

[Recidiva]

Ok great.

Here is one way in which religious teaching has affected my thinking and my philosophy towards D/s relationship(well I guess you could say all relationships really)

Religious truth: God is a tri-une being or the trinity - The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe that since God created mankind, and did so in his image. Therefore we as human beings also are tri-une beings having a Mind, Heart and Body. Of course these three are figurative representations of our being and all elements of a person can be categorized under one of these three part of the human being. Such as the Will, Ego, Conscience, Feelings, Emotions, Sensations etc....

The cross over: Because we are tri-une beings and have a Mind, Heart and Body, it is possible to experience exchange on all three levels. Meaning simply that dominance can be an expression of the Mind, Heart and Body and can also be exerted upon the Mind, Heart and Body of another. Likewise submission can be an expression of the Mind, Heart and Body and can offered to another's Mind, Heart and Body.

I believe a healthy D/s relationship or any relationship for that matter should include a balance of exchange from all three of these.

This is just one example.

I tend to see these impulses as exchange also. We give what we have, ideally to those who need it and want it and get something from what we have to offer. We also do best when our needs are fulfilled by someone needing to give what we want.

There is mind, heart and body, and also a spiritual aspect to it that is where I live mostly. Sensing that and finding the person with exactly the type of energy that I need to have around me, my sustaining source of place. Without that I can't feel as if I'm in the right place or the right time. Clearly made as an imperfect person, but one that can mesh with someone else's imperfections and dovetail.

 

[Netzach]

My D/s I think does actually tie into a lot of cultural/religious precepts from my reading and understanding of Judaism. My Divine is definitely like a Jewish Grandpa. He loves you, I guess. But you're not getting any good information out of him.

"Why? For what should I tell you why? Why she wants to know, Oy Vey. Now get back to work, your cousin Sid he made a fortune in dry cleaning and you? You just kvetch to me all day long.

And don't eat the shellfish, such a boich-veytik it gave me."

I'm much more into D/s that tests and tests and tests the submissive backbone of the subject. Why? Because. Because I can. You wouldn't understand it, so just do.

 

[bridgeburner]

edited to add: Well, this'll teach me to read to the end of the thread before responding. As an answer and explanation of my post it still works, but clearly things have moved on and ironed themselves out so most of what follows isn't really to the point anymore. ;->

/edit



Recidiva,

I'm not coming at it backward for a person who has made a study of religion and ritual compared to sexual ritual. It's absolutely relevant in this context and in the framed question. Even those raised in a religious background don't always remain in it.

I don't recall saying that it was irrelevant, but what you seem to be saying now is not what I understood your first post to mean which is what I was responding to. Your first post states:

I'm under the impression that many sadomasochistic people that don't adopt a healthy reflective sex life will use religion as the next best thing.

Indulging it in an ecstatic or mythic way rather than personalizing the impulse.

The reason I say that it's a backwards approach is because rather than talk about the human sadomasochistic impulse which shows up in every religion man has so far created you began with mal-adjusted masochists using religious suffering to self-medicate as it were. Maladjusted masochists become cutters or find abusive relationships to enter into far more quickly and satsifyingly than the pain you get from church.

The unfortunate tone that seems to be taking place is that I somehow disapprove of masochism or religion by bringing up instances from my own experience, which is not the case.

I'm not sure what part of my post gave you the impression that I thought you were bashing either masochists or religion. That certainly was not my intent.

Fasting, sacrifice, all devotions that are done in order to offer suffering for its own sake, either to experience the suffering of others, or induce pain and transcend it, are all in the realm of masochism because it isn't pain for a mundane purpose, it's ritual pain to achieve a goal (sympathy, penance, ecstasy)

Yes, but as I stated, this only points to the conclusion that homo sapiens is an inherently masochistic beast. He's also a creature motivated by the struggle for power as in every instance where two people meet one will likely be dominant to the other. Does this mean that 99% of the world's population are in denial about their BDSM tendencies? No. It means simply that BDSM has universal and mundane roots that some of us choose to follow to extraordinary places.

As to this not being practiced these days, there are people in the Phillipines hanging on crosses today. There are Muslim flagellant marches. Hindu piercing rituals. I'm not belittling these traditions or exposing them. I'm discussing them.

I mentioned the Catholic Flagellants because I thought you were referring to them specifically. I'm aware that there are plenty of other faiths in the world with physically arduous rituals and practices, but it seemed to me that you were initially focusing on Catholicism ---to the best of my knowledge most Protestant churches leave the body off the cross.

There are those that believe that offering pain is sacred, and that by definition is masochistic. (not everyone believes this, so externally they can't appear to be anything but masochistic in origin)

There are those that require pain be offered, and that by definition is sadistic. (None of these religious founders said "Hey guys, hang on a cross/whip yourself/pierce yourself for Me", so someone thought of it. Humans either wanted to see it or do it. Rarely (except in the case of some not-so-obvious cults, like Kali) did the original diety glorify pain.

The human element of faith and devotion contains an element of masochism. Some people choose to create, build a temple. Other people choose to bleed.

But it isn't necessarily or even usually sexual sado-masochism which is a very specific thing. If you don't become sexually aroused by your masochism or sadism then you don't fall under the BDSM umbrella.

As to why I'm singling it out, it's because I have questions about people's experiences, and I don't avoid singling something out because it might press buttons. Any subject that presses buttons is interesting.

I like buttons.

I don't have anything against buttons, but it helps to push the right ones to get the result you want.

I don't think anyone here would have a problem looking at the sado-masochistic undertones in religious expression of all stripes, but you're addressing a bunch of folk who are not in denial about their BDSM desires so right off the bat the experiences being told back to you aren't going to be what you seemed to be looking for. Also, you were somewhat flip when talking about what you yourself stated is one of the most common (and therefore likely to be revered) symbols of the Christian faith. Of course those who revere such a symbol are going to explain to you what it means to them if they think you've got it wrong or just don't understand.



-B

 

[Recidiva]

The reason I say that it's a backwards approach is because rather than talk about the human sadomasochistic impulse which shows up in every religion man has so far created you began with mal-adjusted masochists using religious suffering to self-medicate as it were. Maladjusted masochists become cutters or find abusive relationships to enter into far more quickly and satsifyingly than the pain you get from church.

Yes, but as I stated, this only points to the conclusion that homo sapiens is an inherently masochistic beast. He's also a creature motivated by the struggle for power as in every instance where two people meet one will likely be dominant to the other. Does this mean that 99% of the world's population are in denial about their BDSM tendencies? No. It means simply that BDSM has universal and mundane roots that some of us choose to follow to extraordinary places.

I mentioned the Catholic Flagellants because I thought you were referring to them specifically. I'm aware that there are plenty of other faiths in the world with physically arduous rituals and practices, but it seemed to me that you were initially focusing on Catholicism ---to the best of my knowledge most Protestant churches leave the body off the cross.

But it isn't necessarily or even usually sexual sado-masochism which is a very specific thing. If you don't become sexually aroused by your masochism or sadism then you don't fall under the BDSM umbrella.

I don't think anyone here would have a problem looking at the sado-masochistic undertones in religious expression of all stripes, but you're addressing a bunch of folk who are not in denial about their BDSM desires so right off the bat the experiences being told back to you aren't going to be what you seemed to be looking for. Also, you were somewhat flip when talking about what you yourself stated is one of the most common (and therefore likely to be revered) symbols of the Christian faith. Of course those who revere such a symbol are going to explain to you what it means to them if they think you've got it wrong or just don't understand.
-B

I understand, my original question was about a specific subset of people and asking "have you seen this" and my reasons for asking this group was because they weren't in denial, so very likely they'd be the first group to say "I've noticed that." Small group with the experience and practical skills to notice a trend.

I do apologize for the flip, if only because it seemed to spread a wider net than I'd originally intended through the tone.

I should add a disclaimer "No devout were harmed in the production of this thread."

Not intentionally, anyway.

In my experience faith has a huge, huge impact on your sexuality. Although this question is dealing with those whose faith is disconnected from their sexuality, there's no way I can ask those guys, because that's what denial is. I'd be burned in town square for asking. Which is why I'm not asking in town square.

Whether or not you get a physical or sexual or emotional or spiritual rush from masochism, the mechanics are often the same and won't look any different in a temple or in a dungeon.

I'm tangent girl, so I'll take this where it goes and take one step further.
Most often, these rituals are separated out along gender lines.

I've participated in gender rituals, one in particular on a property where men weren't allowed for the two weeks the women were there. I'd never spent that much time away from men in a lifetime, I'd gotten used to having them around. At the end of those two weeks, though, seeing my first man again was like a lightning strike.

I've participated in enough ritualized behavior to understand the partitions and the payoff. At least for the group. It's the individual that can come up with fun ways to take a ritual for enlightenment or transcendence and turn it somehow to make it sadistic or masochistic.

For instance, show me a spell in a grimoire using sage and bladderwrack and I understand that.

Show me one where it says you need the blood of a crucified child and I'll show you someone who likes to crucify children. Since society doesn't like crucified children on the whole, they'll wrap their practice in faith. There, now it's holy and sacred. However, the trend seems to be that the more horrifying something is, the more powerful it might seem to others. The first instance I get, it's specific, it's a sadist or a masochist. The ones that pick up that spell 200 years later and say "Wow, that's powerful, I'm going to do that." That's the gray area. They didn't create it, but they buy it.

Sacrifice given and sacrifice taken. The first I understand. The second hasn't been explored enough to eradicate it from the social structure, and it's irrevocably tied to the first.

 

[Pure]

N: My D/s I think does actually tie into a lot of cultural/religious precepts from my reading and understanding of Judaism. My Divine is definitely like a Jewish Grandpa. He loves you, I guess. But you're not getting any good information out of him.

"Why? For what should I tell you why? Why she wants to know, Oy Vey. Now get back to work, your cousin Sid he made a fortune in dry cleaning and you? You just kvetch to me all day long.

And don't eat the shellfish, such a boich-veytik it gave me."

I'm much more into D/s that tests and tests and tests the submissive backbone of the subject. Why? Because. Because I can. You wouldn't understand it, so just do.

---
I think God in the Jewish Scriptures (OT)has at least a couple dom like features: apparent arbitrariness, and apparently inexplicableness. The first shows in the Garden of Eden, for there is no real reason NOT to eat of this tree. Also, from what I gather from practicing faithful, is that many prohibitions, such as not to 'boil the kid in its mother's milk' have no obvious explanation.


The second is clear in Job and elsewhere: that some bad things are, though not from God, are allowed by him, and no one knows why.

Following such a Dominant Presence then is, as you say, essentially a test. Further it's apparent that the common thing that subs are taught to wonder about (is this good for me?) and ask about (how is this good for my personal development?) does not fit into this OT picture of submission.

Nice to see you again..

 

[Recidiva]

I think God in the Jewish Scriptures (OT)has at least a couple dom like features: apparent arbitrariness, and apparently inexplicableness. The first shows in the Garden of Eden, for there is no real reason NOT to eat of this tree. Also, from what I gather from practicing faithful, is that many prohibitions, such as not to 'boil the kid in its mother's milk' have no obvious explanation.


The second is clear in Job and elsewhere: that some bad things are, though not from God, are allowed by him, and no one knows why.

Following such a Dominant Presence then is, as you say, essentially a test. Further it's apparent that the common thing that subs are taught to wonder about (is this good for me?) and ask about (how is this good for my personal development?) does not fit into this OT picture of submission.

Nice to see you again..

I think for me it has to do not so much that God or the scriptures are infallible, but that I am imperfect and cannot comprehend.

Rather in the way that I say, even if the ants in the back yard storm the house and steal the key to the car, they're still not going to be able to do much with it.

I'm the ant in the back yard wondering what the glint off the shiny thing is.

I'm never going to get it.

Some people want religion because they want to know. I need spirituality because I don't imagine my little mind is even capable of knowing, but I'm fascinated by shiny things.

 

[jadefirefly]

Netzach, that was absolutely one of the best analogies I've ever, ever seen. That was excellent!

One of my favorite opinions on a/the deity/deities is expressed adequately in my sig line, I believe.

I love that book....

 

[Recidiva]

Netzach, that was absolutely one of the best analogies I've ever, ever seen. That was excellent!

One of my favorite opinions on a/the deity/deities is expressed adequately in my sig line, I believe.

I love that book....

I want to have "Good Omens" bound in leather. No, not a sexual thing, but I might make it one now. LOVE that book.

 

[jadefirefly]

Mmm, I dunno about leather, but there is a very nice recently-released edition in hardcover with a nifty reversable cover...

I just can't justify buying it, though, when I already own a copy, even if it isn't such a pretty one....

 

[bridgeburner]

I've participated in enough ritualized behavior to understand the partitions and the payoff. At least for the group. It's the individual that can come up with fun ways to take a ritual for enlightenment or transcendence and turn it somehow to make it sadistic or masochistic.

For instance, show me a spell in a grimoire using sage and bladderwrack and I understand that.

Show me one where it says you need the blood of a crucified child and I'll show you someone who likes to crucify children. Since society doesn't like crucified children on the whole, they'll wrap their practice in faith. There, now it's holy and sacred.

This caught my eye because of a segment on 60 Minutes last night. I only caught part of it before we were switched over to the wacky antics of Baby Einstein videos, but 60 Minutes was allowed into a top-security Israeli prison where convicted terrorists are held --- primarily members of Hammas.

The second inmate interviewed was formerly an RN or med-tech of some kind at an Israeli hospital. After an incident where Israeli soldiers fired into a crowd of Palestinians this guy who previously couldn't stand to see a single drop of anyone's blood shed in violence proceeded to walk up to a man at a bus stop and stab him to death. Bystanders attempted to subdue him and by the time he was secured in custody he'd stabbed 12 people, four of them women whom he stabbed to death.

Now, granted this wasn't ritualized religious practice, but he's wrapped his actions in religious and political rhetoric when essentially he's nothing but a mass murderer. He didn't stab those people for Palestine or for Allah, he stabbed them because he's a psychotic fuck who finally found a way to justify his desires --- So long as he only killed Jews then he was performing a holy act.


-B

 

[Recidiva]

This caught my eye because of a segment on 60 Minutes last night. I only caught part of it before we were switched over to the wacky antics of Baby Einstein videos, but 60 Minutes was allowed into a top-security Israeli prison where convicted terrorists are held --- primarily members of Hammas.

The second inmate interviewed was formerly an RN or med-tech of some kind at an Israeli hospital. After an incident where Israeli soldiers fired into a crowd of Palestinians this guy who previously couldn't stand to see a single drop of anyone's blood shed in violence proceeded to walk up to a man at a bus stop and stab him to death. Bystanders attempted to subdue him and by the time he was secured in custody he'd stabbed 12 people, four of them women whom he stabbed to death.

Now, granted this wasn't ritualized religious practice, but he's wrapped his actions in religious and political rhetoric when essentially he's nothing but a mass murderer. He didn't stab those people for Palestine or for Allah, he stabbed them because he's a psychotic fuck who finally found a way to justify his desires --- So long as he only killed Jews then he was performing a holy act.


-B

Yes, then there's the case of Saeed Hanaei in Iran who killed "prostitutes"

He sexually abused these women and killed them. He denies he sexually abused them and says he's doing it to "cleanse" the population of those who are "a waste of blood" in Iranian law.

He's become a bit of a folk hero for those with the same attitude. They think the sexual abuse is propaganda, but he's out doing "God's Work."

These women were basically out on the street without an escort, which is also not permitted. So using social cues and prejudices to further your desire to murder and torture and claim you do it for God.

With my congratulations to the law in Iran, though, they executed him.

However, there's no doubt that he's now legendary to many people. Even his son (at all of eight years old, it looks like) say others will take on this "work" for him.

 

[graceanne]

Yes, then there's the case of Saeed Hanaei in Iran who killed "prostitutes"

He sexually abused these women and killed them. He denies he sexually abused them and says he's doing it to "cleanse" the population of those who are "a waste of blood" in Iranian law.

He's become a bit of a folk hero for those with the same attitude. They think the sexual abuse is propaganda, but he's out doing "God's Work."

These women were basically out on the street without an escort, which is also not permitted. So using social cues and prejudices to further your desire to murder and torture and claim you do it for God.

With my congratulations to the law in Iran, though, they executed him.

However, there's no doubt that he's now legendary to many people. Even his son (at all of eight years old, it looks like) say others will take on this "work" for him.

Sounds like Jack the Ripper. Although we don't know why he did it.

My best friend in highschool, Katy, read a story about a cult once that would beat children bloody when they turned 8 to rid them of 'sin's of the flesh'. No matter where you go you'll find people who will use their religion as an excuse to murder (9/11 anyone?). But these people will find a reason to kill - they're sick. It isn't the fault of the religion, it's the fault of the person. When a person says that a dog told him to kill do you blame all dogs?

 

[Recidiva]

Sounds like Jack the Ripper. Although we don't know why he did it.

My best friend in highschool, Katy, read a story about a cult once that would beat children bloody when they turned 8 to rid them of 'sin's of the flesh'. No matter where you go you'll find people who will use their religion as an excuse to murder (9/11 anyone?). But these people will find a reason to kill - they're sick. It isn't the fault of the religion, it's the fault of the person. When a person says that a dog told him to kill do you blame all dogs?

No, I'm not blaming religion at all, any more than I'd blame Jack's scalpel. Religion is a tool that is perverted. But it's just a magnet for those with a high capacity of denial and a huge sense of self importance.

 

[graceanne]

No, I'm not blaming religion at all, any more than I'd blame Jack's scalpel. Religion is a tool that is perverted. But it's just a magnet for those with a high capacity of denial and a huge sense of self importance.

True enough. What scares me the most isn't the freaks who do this stuff, it's the people who follow these freaks.

 

[Recidiva]

True enough. What scares me the most isn't the freaks who do this stuff, it's the people who follow these freaks.

Yes. That's my theory. The first person has the will to bring it into reality, but that somehow anoints it and makes it holy and repeatable to others, without the original will or whatever brought it about. It just looks "powerful" to them, so they copy it.

 

[graceanne]

Yes. That's my theory. The first person has the will to bring it into reality, but that somehow anoints it and makes it holy and repeatable to others, without the original will or whatever brought it about. It just looks "powerful" to them, so they copy it.

I don't think it has anything to do with it. They go with it cause it's socially acceptable (more so than just being a crazy) when it's holy. I think they go along with it cause they're sick, and they've found an outlet for their sickness.