The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[BLoved]

I think this is still relelvant to the discussion:

---

Just so you know I am not involved in "causal BDSM". I am in a loving monogamous relationship with someone whom I will marry one day. I have never been to a play party, munch, or any kind of BDSM event. I might not ever attend one in my life.

I personally believe BDSM is only enhanced when you are in a loving relationship. And I agree that BDSM outside of love can be more dangerous, but I will always respect another person's right to live their life how they want.

I'm going to put you on ignore now robert. It's been fun.

But before I go, I just want to say:

Kill yourself.

I agree.

I was Robert's "beloved".

I left him because he was not who i thought he was.
He changed over the time we spent together and i realized i no longer loved him. It was a difficult decision that i came to but one that i am glad i made.

Robert is stuck in his ways.
He hates change and anything that has to do with change. In way i started to pity him. He still has not gotten over the losses in his life. He tries to cover them up with his belief that Love will cure all. But I realized it doesn't.

I knew if i told Robert all this, he would have just went about his life as if i said nothing at all. Its Robert's way or its the wrong way. I couldn't live like that. i will always have a place in my heart for Robert.

But i am glad i left. It was one of the best decisions i could have made for myself.

Take care of yourself Robert.

That was me.

And I've rated your stories 1 star a bunch of times.

~smile~

Bye bye robert.

Take care.

The worst of his lies is claiming people who love can behave like that.

We can't, and we never will.

Vindicated ... validated.

Yet another example of the 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'.

 

[WriterDom]

Your bed has barely cooled down and I see you have a personal ad today. Why fish in the waters of "casual bdsm?" Are you hoping to prey on one of the novices you are always speaking of?

Nice ad though. Maybe they won't roam over here and see your nasty judgmental side.

 

[Cattypuss]

80 pages, just as you say.

BUT....

It's not because "the mob" disagrees with you.

It's because "the mob" finds your manner highly offensive.

Can you seriously not see the difference?

 

[BLoved]

Your bed has barely cooled down and I see you have a personal ad today.

Considering the manner in which the relationship ended, I am prepared to talk with new people again.

Conversation doesn't require love or committment, just a willingness to get to know someone and to let them get to know you.

Why fish in the waters of "casual bdsm?"

Considering the ratings and comments and mail I am receiving for my stories, I am not of the opinion all are in agreement with the mob in this discussion.

Are you hoping to prey on one of the novices you are always speaking of?

You wish.

Nice ad though. Maybe they won't roam over here and see your nasty judgmental side.

Are you saying no one from the mob will go there to warn them?

 

[BLoved]

80 pages, just as you say.

BUT....

It's not because "the mob" disagrees with you.

It's because "the mob" finds your manner highly offensive.

Can you seriously not see the difference?

What they find highly offensive is that someone intelligent and articulate argues so persuasively against the 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm', and uses their own behaviour as examples of abuse.

They can't argue ethics, and rather than chasing me off with abusive behaviour they find their own abusive behaviour turned against them to further the argument against their 'ethics'.

Must drive them crazy.

But I am not responsible for the manner in which the immature choose to manifest their immaturity.

Each person is responsible for his or her own choices, including behaviour.

I have pointed out their immaturity, their lack of ethics and they chose to provide the evidence to support my claims.

Their behaviour is amongst one of the best arguments against casual 'bdsm'. Their obsession with obtaining obedience through any means necessary is so obvious in these 80 pages.

 

[AlabasterThighs]

Although I am not the target demographic (new submissive) and do not practice BDSM (vanilla married for 15 years), I have followed this thread since its inception. When “debate” did occur, I found that many times, both sides of the argument had strong, valid, and interesting points. In fact, most often these points were similar, just differing in semantics. Unfortunately, these points have been buried under comments made by both sides of the divide that add nothing to the topic, and the thread has deteriorated into playground antics (“Did not!” “Did too!” and various name-calling).

What I have taken from this thread: People bring their own ‘ethics’ to their interactions with others. A specific practice, whether kink or straight, does not have ‘ethics’ of its own. It is the people engaging that determine the nature of the interaction. Personally, I follow the adages of “An it harm none do what ye will” and “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” Not in any religious way, simply in a how I live my life way.

Love is a word that only time can reveal the truth of. I wish everyone much success and happiness in their chosen path.

One other note: BLoved, IMHO, using the “kill yourself” quote in your signature detracts from your message. Taken out of context, it comes across oddly. Your linked writings are a much better portrayal of the message you are trying to get across.

 

[BLoved]

One other note: BLoved, IMHO, using the “kill yourself” quote in your signature detracts from your message. Taken out of context, it comes across oddly. Your linked writings are a much better portrayal of the message you are trying to get across.

It was a price I was willing to pay to make a point to those in this discussion.

I appreciate you sharing your opinion, and I've removed the quote.

I recognize your quote of the Wiccan Rede:

"An it harm none, do what thou wilt."

I subscribe to it, providing none are harmed.

That is why I object to casual 'bdsm' ... I see harm being done.

 

[Cattypuss]

OK. I should have known better.

I give up. It is not possible to reason with someone who is so completely blinkered.

 

[Stella_Omega]

And how do you think a novice with low self-esteem would stand up to all this abuse?

Would she just cave in and do as she is told?

And if what she was being told to do was something that destroyed whatever pride she had in herself? What then?

After confronting her with all this abuse from all these people, trying to force her to do something that would destroy what little self-esteem she has left ... might she not consider suicide?

And if not suicide, perhaps simply hide herself away, living alone, never loved ...

Is that not a possibility?

Do you think the mob would care?

If he had actually said it to a sub, the mob would have come down on him like a ton of bricks. But he didn't say it to a sub. He said it to you, in response to your hectoring and nagging.

Is that your secret identity? Are you a female submissive with low self-esteem?

Or are you a big strong man who can tell the difference between words and deeds?

because I'm thinking you're more of a girl than I've ever been.

 

[BLoved]

Oh, sure, if he had actually said it to a sub. But he didn't say it to a sub. He said it to you.

Is that you? Are you a female submissive with low self-esteem?

Or are you a big strong man who can tell the difference between words and deeds?

because I'm thinking you're more of a girl than I've ever been.

This may come as a shock, but even men are known to commit suicide.

Do you think anyone cares?

That's what happens when you only use a munch to determine the sanity and stability of an individual ... you never know whose psyche you're messing with.

Piling on 80 pages of abuse because you think I can take it is irresponsible.

Maybe the next guy can't take it ... what then?

 

[Homburg]

Most people are smart enough to recognise an environment that is toxic to their core beliefs and leave. You could do the same, and so could your theoretical low self-esteem lost female submissive.

And you obviously can take it, else you would have left by now.

 

[Cattypuss]

I think, to be fair, people are returning his unpleasantness to him not "because" they think he can take it (though clearly he can, for the reason Homburg points out), but rather "because" they think he deserves it.

Big, big difference in motivation there.

And, btw, as someone who mans a suicide hotline in her spare time, I am finding I have less patience with grand claims re. suicide susceptibility here than I had with even the highly offensive nigger claims. People who are truly desperate and despairing enough to kill themselves do NOT - I repeat, do NOT - sound ANYTHING like BLoved.

 

[BLoved]

Most people are smart enough to recognise an environment that is toxic to their core beliefs and leave.

I appreciate the admission.

You could do the same, and so could your theoretical low self-esteem lost female submissive.

Unfortunately, those with low self-esteem would have caved in a long time ago, and thus sustain even more damage to her self-esteem.

Cycles of self-destruction, remember?

And you obviously can take it, else you would have left by now.

I have to take it.

It would appear I'm the only one who can bring these facts to light for those most at risk.

This discussion is like a 'candid camera' for them. Shows them what to expect from the casual community when someone says "no".

You've no respect for that word.

To the mob, "no" means "abuse me till I say yes".

You just can't seem to tell the difference between real life and your ego.

 

[BLoved]

I think, to be fair, people are returning his unpleasantness to him not "because" they think he can take it (though clearly he can, for the reason Homburg points out), but rather "because" they think he deserves it.

I appreciate that insight regarding casual players and their advocates.

I think we all should know how far the casual community will go when they decide someone "deserves it".

Kill yourself.

Big, big difference in motivation there.

Absolutely.

80 pages of abuse because I "deserve it" because I don't believe in the 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'.

That would be 'tolerance', casual 'bdsm' style.

And, btw, as someone who mans a suicide hotline in her spare time, I am finding I have less patience with grand claims re. suicide susceptibility here than I had with even the highly offensive nigger claims. People who are truly desperate and despairing enough to kill themselves do NOT - I repeat, do NOT - sound ANYTHING like BLoved.

Well, I'm always glad to receive a diagnosis from a professional, regardless of whether in fact we've ever met and had a conversation, face to face.

And of course I'm pleased that everyone has been told I'm not anywhere close to being suicidal.

I'm sure that is reassuring for anyone who might consider a future with me.

But I should point out that if anyone is seriously contemplating suicide, they don't call a suicide hotline.

They just do it.

So just how many pages of abuse would it take for you people to cause someone to just snap?

Kill yourself.

 

[Cattypuss]

.

But I should point out that if anyone is seriously contemplating suicide, they don't call a suicide hotline.

They just do it.

BULLSHIT.

Have you any idea how many people call the suicide hotline I work for (the world's first such organisation, and one that espouses self-determination) - call it AFTER taking the overdose - because they want someone to talk with them and "be with them" while they die?

No, you don't.

Stick to what you know about.

 

[BLoved]

BULLSHIT.

Have you any idea how many people call the suicide hotline I work for (the world's first such organisation, and one that espouses self-determination) - call it AFTER taking the overdose - because they want someone to talk with them and "be with them" while they die?

No, you don't.

Stick to what you know about.

A lot of desperately lonely people use a threat of suicide to get attention, and call a suicide hotline if nothing else to get it.

Who says I know nothing of what I speak?

Someone who is truly suicidal doesn't want to be stopped, and uses either a very quick method, or doesn't tell anyone as they do it more slowly.

You are not going to convince anyone that everyone who has suicided called a hotline.

Has anyone checked to see just how many homosexuals have killed themselves because they endured repeated and vicious harassment because they were gay?

It happens, far too often.

It happens because people don't care how vicious they get when they're not getting their way.

Like an adult temper tantrum.

Kill yourself.

 

[Cattypuss]

Christ on a bike.

Twas not I asserting that all suicides call a suicide hotline. Twas you asserting that no suicides call a suicide hotline.

Trying to have a logical, cohesive discussion with you is like trying to discuss political theory with a hamster.

 

[Homburg]

And, btw, as someone who mans a suicide hotline in her spare time, I am finding I have less patience with grand claims re. suicide susceptibility here than I had with even the highly offensive nigger claims. People who are truly desperate and despairing enough to kill themselves do NOT - I repeat, do NOT - sound ANYTHING like BLoved.

The single most frightening thing I've ever heard happened one night on the phone with one of my best friends. He'd just gotten dumped by his girlfriend and was morose, crying, and talking about suicide. I took it seriously as his mother killed herself when he was twelve. Suicide was an issue with him. Anyway, while I was sitting there talking to him, I heard the unmistakable K-Clack of a slide being racked on an automatic pistol, and knew that he had one. The discussion, already serious, hit an entirely new level, and I started saying anything that I could say to get that gun out of his hand.

He didn't shoot himself, and I went by his house the next day with a BS story about needing to borrow his pistol for a shooting qual. He still lived at home but wasn't there, and his dad let me have it. Wow, he bitched at me for that, but didn't ask for it back. A few months later, he stabilised and I brought it back. He's married now, successful as hell, and has a baby girl.

I still don't recall what all I said, but it worked. I can, however, clearly recall being frightened out of my mind. The point to this anecdote is to say that I have the deepest respect for what you are doing. It is difficult work, and I wish you nothing but success.

--

I appreciate the admission.

Admission? It is an observation. You have identified your views, and painted your percection of those views held by the populace here. They are inimicable, and, judging from your verbage, toxic.

So, no admission, just observation. And honestly trying to keep it to value-neutral observation.

Unfortunately, those with low self-esteem would have caved in a long time ago, and thus sustain even more damage to her self-esteem.

Cycles of self-destruction, remember?

I don't think so. Lack of perceived parallels in interest cause most people to lose interest. Only fanatics and the like keep going when there is no collusion or parallel.

I have to take it.

It would appear I'm the only one who can bring these facts to light for those most at risk.

And now you sound like a narcissistic martyr again.

Seriously, B, I do not say that as an insult. Read what you posted and imagine that, say, Netzach wrote it.

"I'm the only one that can do this." "I'm the only one that can handle this." These are the words of narcissism. "I will suffer so that the truth can get out." These are the words of martyrdom.

This discussion is like a 'candid camera' for them. Shows them what to expect from the casual community when someone says "no".

You've no respect for that word.

Is this a generic "you" plural, or a specific "you, Homburg"? Because, again, your message is obfuscated by poor word choice. If it is a generic "you" plural, you are tarring the whole lot of this board with the same brush. If it is a specific "you, Homburg," you don't know me, and have no proof behind such baseless, libelous accusations.

Oddly enough, it goes back to my goat-fucker comments. I realise that those went over your head, but this was the exact sort of comment I was referring to. You have no proof, yet you accuse.

You just can't seem to tell the difference between real life and your ego.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here, but, honestly, it amuses the hell out of me anyway. The irony is rich indeed. If I thought that was your intent, I would laud you for it.

 

[Cattypuss]

I still don't recall what all I said, but it worked. I can, however, clearly recall being frightened out of my mind. The point to this anecdote is to say that I have the deepest respect for what you are doing. It is difficult work, and I wish you nothing but success.

Thanks Homburg

To be fair, it must be scarier and more draining when it's a friend on the other end of the line, rather than a stranger. Glad your story had a happy ending. In what I do, you tend to find that either you will never know what the ending is, or you're there on the line while the UNHAPPY ending happens.

 

[BLoved]

It happens because people don't care how vicious they get when they're not getting their way.

Like an adult temper tantrum.

Christ on a bike.

Trying to have a logical, cohesive discussion with you is like trying to discuss political theory with a hamster.

And as you prove me right, you learn to hate me a little more.

And for future reference, a "suicide" is someone who has actually committed suicide.

You can "attempt suicide", you can have "suicidal" feelings or intentions, but you are not actually a "suicide" till you succeed.

The people who call you may be suicidal, but they are not suicides, they're hoping you will talk them out of it.

 

[Cattypuss]

The people who call you may be suicidal, but they are not suicides, they're hoping you will talk them out of it.

LET ME SAY IT AGAIN A LITTLE MORE CLEARLY.

THERE ARE MANY, MANY PEOPLE WHO CALL MY ORGANISATION BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO DIE ALONE AND WHO DIE WITH US ON THE OTHER END OF THE LINE.

WE DO TALK TO SUICIDES.

GET IT????

 

[Homburg]

Thanks Homburg

To be fair, it must be scarier and more draining when it's a friend on the other end of the line, rather than a stranger. Glad your story had a happy ending. In what I do, you tend to find that either you will never know what the ending is, or you're there on the line while the UNHAPPY ending happens.

*hugs*

I don't know how you do it, but I'm damned glad that there are people like you out there.

 

[Cattypuss]

*hugs*

I don't know how you do it, but I'm damned glad that there are people like you out there.

Thanks, H.

We have a GREAT bunch of people in the organisation whose role is to provide emotional support to those who man the phones, in the days after a difficult call. They are brilliant.

(Thinks... I wonder who supports THEM!)

 

[BLoved]

And now you sound like a narcissistic martyr again.

Seriously, B, I do not say that as an insult. Read what you posted and imagine that, say, Netzach wrote it.

"I'm the only one that can do this." "I'm the only one that can handle this." These are the words of narcissism. "I will suffer so that the truth can get out." These are the words of martyrdom.

Perhaps you overlooked the words "it would appear". I don't see anyone else bringing these facts to light, do you?

Am I the only one who sees these things? Hell no. In my travels I've spoken with quite a few who see the abusive nature of casual players and their advocates. It is most obvious on the forums, red flags everywhere whenever the mob gets it into its collective brain that they're going to make an example of someone.

It's like a feeding frenzy.

And that's what the casual community is like in public, so it isn't too hard to decide to avoid the experience in private.

You folk have been trying to feed on me for over two months and through 80 pages of this discussion ... and I'm still here, pointing it all out to those at risk of experiencing such behaviour in private.

Is this a generic "you" plural ... you are tarring the whole lot of this board with the same brush.

Do you see anyone from the casual community outraged by the abuses of the casual community?

I don't.

Oddly enough, it goes back to my goat-fucker comments. I realise that those went over your head, but this was the exact sort of comment I was referring to. You have no proof, yet you accuse.

80 pages in this discussion.

As for "goat-fucker" ... just another example of the abusive behaviour that fills this discussion.

 

[BLoved]

THERE ARE MANY, MANY PEOPLE WHO CALL MY ORGANISATION BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO DIE ALONE AND WHO DIE WITH US ON THE OTHER END OF THE LINE.

Hard to imagine you manning a phone with a temper like that.

You're saying it is impossible for someone to wait too long before they change their mind? That they can't seek attention unaware of the fact that help is too far away to make a difference?